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Emergence, Week 1
Welcome to the on-line forum associated with the Biology 361 = Computer Science 361
at Bryn Mawr College. Its a way to keep conversations going between
course meetings, and to
do so in a way that makes our conversations available to other who may
in turn have interesting thoughts to contribute to them. Leave whatever
thoughts in progress you think might be useful to others, see what
other people are thinking, and add thoughts that that in turn generates
in you.
Thoughts
Unfortunately I missed our first class meeting due to another class, but from reading the comments already posted here, I've gained a little understanding of what might have been discussed.
As far as the reading is concerned, it made me interested in how our various systems of complexity vary depending upon the discipline at hand. It gives us a way to look at ourselves differently and how we operate and question ourselves and perhaps see different conclusions that weren't apparent before. I don't think as humans, that we can possibly see every conclusion from every action because perhaps we focus too much on details that could/could not have great depth. Perhaps the reason why wars are created, etc. are so broad for us to understand and perhaps too general or widespread to have us find a solid good conclusion to why humans do such things. The actions of a human sometimes can be completely unconscious and therefore how can we pull meaning from them?
Week 1 Discussion/ From Complexity to Emergence and Beyond
Class discussion: I agree that many systems are probably hybrid and reflect both design and emergence. From the evolutionary perspective it is true that the human system has not been designed for specifically, but we can view nature as influencing design by selecting for the outcomes best suited to the environment. Also there is the case of computers we discussed in class where the computer programs themselves are designed but some outcome such as bugs can be considered emergent because they were not intended and have emergent properties. Also the “ripple patterns” Professor Grobstein discussed reminded me of fractal patterns and made me wonder whether they could also be seen as examples of emergence. While in some cases fractal patterns are human designed or computer generated there are also example of fractal patterns in nature such as in the case of snowflakes. So perhaps they are also a representation of both design and emergence?
From Complexity to Emergence and Beyond: I like the idea that a broader scope in inquiry across different disciplines is beneficial and that you can “see possibilities less visible from more closely defined perspectives.” I think that by approaching inquiry from this perspective it will offer more opportunity to recognize and appreciate patterns across disciplines and help in understanding emergent processes as the example of the “ripple effect” demonstrates.
Week 1
The article for this week was really interesting and posed some intriguing questions. I think it has made me rethink the idea of inquiry and I can see how “inquiry is as much about conceiving new possibilities as it is about discovering what is” and that “[reality] is changing all the time, in part because of our own activities as inquirers.” For example, up until the 17th century, it was thought that the Earth was stationary at the center of the Universe, but now we know that the planets move around the stationary Sun. “Reality” changed as our inquiries changed.
What also interested me was one of the points mentioned as a general foundational idea that permeated the environment back in the 1960's and 70's – that complex phenomena would follow necessarily from isolating and fully characterizing simpler phenomena that gave rise to them. While this seems to work in the case of human body or a college or even a car, it makes me wonder about something like war – can we isolate and find reasons that cause a war? Do the reasons always make sense? Can we always understand complex phenomena this way?
Thoughts on "From Complexity to Emergence and Beyond"
I was struck by the idea that emergence “isn’t exactly the same for each person”. I think our discussion in class on Wednesday showed the accuracy of that observation pretty clearly. I’ve started thinking of emergence less as a phenomenon and more of a tool for identifying patterns across different disciplines. The challenge to overcome now is to adequately define or communicate a concept of emergence that is useful as a standard to call upon when talking about observable patterns. We debated the idea that emergence is exclusively a product of humans and therefore did not exist before humans. I agree that the concept of emergence is a product of humans, but the phenomena it describes are not. I also think that the idea that “organization can exist without either a conductor or an architect” is another way of approaching that debate. Just because organization can exist because of a creator, like in the case of a car or computer, doesn’t mean it necessarily has to. Similarly, the concept of emergence exists because humans came up with it, but it could have existed if we hadn’t come up with it.
first thoughts
I was thinking about our
I was thinking about our discussion from last class and how I said I believed that specialness was a property of an emergent system. I guess specialness implies a human observer which raises the question of whether something can be an emergent system without a human observer to describe it as special. Paul says that the problem with something emergent necessitating a human observer is that it implies that there were no emergent phenomena prior to the appearance of humans in the universe. Well I believe that there were indeed no emergent phenomena before humans were present. To consider something as an emergent system requires a human to describe it as such. Yes, we can say that there were emergent systems before we existed like weather phenomena for instance. But a meteorological phenomenon is only that because we say it is....kind of like the tree falling in the woods with no one there to see or hear it. In other words, emergence is a product of the human mind much like any other idea or abstract. We can still talk about and learn about it because doing so can still be useful. But without us here to describe ideas and phenomena, then they wouldn't exist.
Getting started emergently
Rich conversation last week. A few notes from it, for myself and anyone else interested ...
Emergent systems are "more than the sum of their parts," in the sense that the system as a whole displays properties that aren't displayed by any of the parts that make it up. AND those properties are "surprising," in the sense that they weren't "intended"/"designed." The solar system, ant colonies, human bodies, colleges, and cities all seem to fit this characterization to one or another degree.
But one needs to be careful about "one or another degree," as exemplified by cars, airplanes, and computers. These all have global properties that result from the interaction of parts not having those properties, but many of these global properties are clearly intended/designed while others are clearly not (recall defects, accidents, bugs). The same is true to a lesser degree of human bodies, colleges, and cities. So actually many systems are to one or another degree hybrid? And it isn't in general systems that are "emergent" sensu strictu but rather properties? So maybe there are emergent systems and then there are systems that reflect both design and emergence? Are there any systems that have no element of emergence at all? Computer programs/algorithms? Should "bugs" be thought of as "flaws" or "poor design" or as ... "emergent properties"?
Are we comfortable with cancer or psychosis as an emergent property, or do we want/need some additional criterion for "emergent"? Some "specialness" that makes the property "interesting"/"good"? Could there be such a property that is independent of a human observer? The problem is that requiring a property that depends on a human observer would suggest that there were no emergent phenomena prior to the appearance of humans in the universe, and that doesn't make much sense. So, are things emergent just because of new properties coming out of interactions, or is there something more? Something not dependent on humans? What might it be?
Looking forward to other's thoughts about our first conversation, and/or about From Complexity to Emergence and Beyond.
Addendum:
We agreed to leave "randomness" out of the discussion for the moment. Don't worry, we'll pick it up again in the not too distant future.
1st Comments