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Perpetual, Shifting Jet Lag: Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Syndrome and Corollary Discharge
The United States (and much of the rest of the world) times work and school days in relation to the 24 hour solar day. In order to be awake at socially acceptable times for work and school, then, a person's internal clock, or circadian rhythm, must also conform to the 24-hour day. Common thinking holds that cycles may vary considerably within that 24 hour framework- hence "night owls" and "morning people"- but no one can completely diverge from the 24 hour pattern.
Or can they? Today, psychiatrists and sleep specialists have identified many types of circadian rhythm disturbances and disorders. Some are relatively mild- jet lag following travel across time zones, for instance- and generally remedy themselves within a few days <a href="/exchange/#4">(4)</a> Others, however, are more debilitating. Possibly the most debilitating of all is non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome. People with this disorder, instead of having a 24-hour circadian rhythm, have an internal clock that runs in cycles of 25 hours or more, which may or may not begin in alignment with the 24-hour day. The result (if the condition is left untreated) is a pattern known as free-running, where a person's sleep cycle shifts a few hours later each day, never settling consistently; this pattern makes school, regularly scheduled work, and other daily routines generally taken for granted very difficult <a href="/exchange/#4">(4)</a>. One source describes the pattern as "a state of perpetual, shifting jet lag" <a href="/exchange/#3">(3)</a>
People could easily question why this disorder is often so devastating. Maybe the concepts of 24 hour days and sleep disorders are purely socially constructed, they might say; why not simply allow for more flexible work and school schedules to reflect a diversity of circadian rhythm patterns? But while such changes could certainly be useful to non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome patients, long-established social patterns are incredibly hard to deconstruct. So long as most of the world adheres to the 24-hour clock, and so long as the non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome patient needs to interact with others not on their sleep cycle, all the flexible scheduling in the world cannot solve the problem. I became especially interested in non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome after letting a friend of mine, who has the syndrome, stay with me on a night when he felt he was too impaired from sleeplessness to navigate public transit home. At roughly 8 PM, a time that should be early for most twenty-somethings, he could not walk twenty feet to my doorway without staggering. "I fail the sobriety test," he joked as he settled in for the night, but I thought his offhand remark was a striking analogy; he had consumed no alcohol that night, but an outside observer noting his age, his gait, and the time of night might automatically assume drunkenness rather than sleep deprivation.
It's also tempting to label non-24-hour sleep wake syndrome as an entirely biological disorder. Indeed, neurologists can now name many of the areas of the brain responsible for regulating circadian rhythms, and provide some explanations as to how those areas might be disrupted in those with non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome. The most important area in these explanations is a pair of small cell clusters in the hypothalamus known as the superchiasmatic nucleus, or SCN. Photoreceptors in the retina receive sensory input of light and transmit this input through the optic nerve to the SCN, which uses the light cues to entrain, or "set," the person's biological clock <a href="/exchange/#2">(2)</a>. Since light comes and goes in 24 hour cycles as per the rotation of the Earth, it follows that human sleep-wake cycles, which depend on light cues, should also be roughly 24 hours long. The SCN also uses these light cues to regulate cycles of melatonin, a hormone produced in the pineal gland. In a person with normal sleep cycles, melatonin levels peak in the middle of the night, lowering throughout the day and rising as darkness begins again; shifting levels of melatonin are associated with overall shifts in sleep patterns <a href="/exchange/#2">(2)</a>. Using this model, one could interpret non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome as an inability to process these light cues "normally," or as a reduced sensitivity to light cues. This inability or reduced sensitivit, then, encourages underproduction of melatonin at night and over-production during the day, resulting in unusually timed sleep cycles. However, there are undoubtedly institutions in society that encourage abnormal sleep patterns on some level, in addition to physical factors like melatonin problems. Consider American high schools which start at 7 or 7:30 in the morning, forcing students to wake up at 5 or 6. For much of the academic year, there is little natural light at 5 or 6 in the morning. This discrepancy between sensory input and alertness is hard enough on teenagers with normal circadian rhythms<a href="/exchange/#1">(1)</a>; for those with non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome, it must be especially difficult to adjust to.
The best model for explaining non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome then, I believe, is one based on the principle of corollary discharge. Corollary discharge, as we discussed in class, is a mechanism that allows humans to distinguish between internal and external sensorimotor input; discrepancies between sensory and motor inputs lead to various forms of discomfort. Explaining non-24-hour sleep wake syndrome in terms of corollary discharge problems emphasizes the complex relationships between biological and societal factors in the disorder. On one level, the discrepancy between non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome sufferers' internal melatonin levels and outside light cues surely plays a role in creating their irregular sleep patterns. This biological explanation also explains why blind people tend to have non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome at far higher rates than sighted people; since they take in no light through the retina, the SCN cannot register light cues, which in turn inhibits its ability to regulate the pineal gland's melatonin release cycles <a href="/exchange/#3">(3)</a>. But institutions with rigid, early start times, like some jobs or schools, also create corollary discharge problems, since they force people to be awake at times when light cues and melatonin cycles would otherwise indicate the need for sleep <a href="/exchange/#1">(1)</a>. This discharge explains why shift workers, who may alternate between very early and very late work hours, often have disrupted sleep patterns (although they will rarely have true non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome, which is a very rare condition.)
Non-24-hour sleep wake syndrome cannot be cured, only controlled. It's interesting to note, though, that common methods of controlling the condition attack both the biological and the social underpinnings. To regulate internal circadian rhythms, non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome patients can take melatonin supplements before bed, bringing their nighttime melatonin levels up to "normal" and, hopefully, encouraging sleep at socially acceptable hours. In addition, sighted patients may use light therapy: exposure to a bright, full-spectrum light early in the day, in an attempt to mimic the bright light of the afternoon hours when the person might naturally wake up <a href="/exchange/#4">(4)</a>. But social factors, like career choice, can also help in the management of the disorder; having a job where one can work from home and choose one's own hours makes the erratic sleep schedule a bit less problematic.
This disorder is a perfect illustration of why it is problematic to claim that disabilities are entirely biologically based or entirely socially constructed. Claiming biological basis alone completely ignores the fact that institutions like high school may aggravate existing disorders. But claiming only social construction leaves little room for interventions based in biology, such as attempts to alter melatonin cycles in non-24-hour sleep-wake patients; while fighting to change the social bases of the disorder is certainly admirable, there's no denying that it cannot produce the immediate effects of melatonin or light therapy. Balance between these two aspects of the disorder seems to be the key; hopefully, medical professionals and social scientists working together can help to shed more light on this condition, as it were.
Web Sources
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=2568
2. "Information About Sleep."
http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih3/sleep/guide/info-sleep.htm
3. "Pathophysiology and Treatment of Circadian Rhythm Sleep Disorders"
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/465494_30
4. Sleep Disorder Primer
http://health.discovery.com/centers/sleepdreams/sleepdisorders/sleepdisorders.html#3
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Comments
Yes, I have that, and it will
Yes, I have that, and it will even run backwards occasionally, so I start waking earlier, effectively having a 20 or 22 hour cycle. Non-24 really is non-24 for me, not just a slightly longer cycle.
I empathize
I am saddened to hear that others have this disorder. I read all of the comments, and could relate to everything said. I'm surprised at the minimal frustration commentors have thrown here, as i will sometimes cry. And nothing else can beat me down like this disorder.
24 yr old dood in VA
So there IS a name for this!
This simply MUST be what I have. Everything written in the article and most of the comments made pertains precisely to my situation. Since 1990 or thereabouts I've been really out of sync with everyone else's sleeping patterns. Of course I got the "You're lazy," and "Just go to bed earlier," advice all to no avail. I'm here now at 5:15 AM (in Australia) after attempting to go to sleep at 12 midnight to be ready for more schooling tomorrow (today, rather) but I can't sleep at all to try to get back into a rhythm that's conducive to attending. I know that if I go on no sleep I'll punch out of consciousness at about 9 o'clock which is when classes start. How does one even address this with their general practitioner (doctor)? It's a--for lack of a better term--'kooky' disorder.
N-24
I am 66 and have been sleeping between 10 and 12 hours a night all my life. Since the time does not change 3 hours each time, would I still qualify as having N-24?
you can sleep 10-12 hours a
you can sleep 10-12 hours a night without it being non-24 hour sleep-wake syndrome. It doesn't mean you don't have it but it also doesn't mean you do. Try keeping a sleep diary to figure out how long your days are.
count me in too
well, since almost all post have also started this way I guess I should too
so Im a non 24 as well, I seem to be running on a 26-28 hour days. I must agree that people who dont know, accept or believe in this as real are pretty hurtful when they label you as lazy when you wake up late, or crazy when you wake up ta 4 in the morning. Im 19 now, since around 12 I started to notice this, although I didnt fully realize my sleep schedule kept moving forward a couple of hours ahead each day until a couple years back. the whole you can put your mind to it is annoying, the try to get to bed earlier is even worse, but throughout living with this Ive learned to simply filter the schpetics and critics out whenever possible, if possible I would try to live with the condition I would actually prefer it, but right now I really cant, Im 19 and thanks to this I havnt finished high school, I get to classes at one point and then I cant get up, usually two months in Ive already been failed for missing too many classes, and I cant get my GED till Im 21. So I need to work something out.
any suggestions would be welcome, though at this point all I can really see as plausible is taking melatonin or just stick to the bear it technique which would mean doing anything to get to class in time, probably fall asleep there but get the attendance, and study on my own for the exams mostly finals. soooo... either I drug myself, or I get self-home-schooled and lose 8 hours a day attending classes which I wouldnt be able to follow do to sleep deprivation..... GREAT
I'm in the same boat as you :/
I have non-24 and it is the cause to me not finishing high school either. I got mine from a car accident I got in when I was in 3rd grade. I didn't start seeing significant signs of a sleep disorder until 7th grade though (I missed a lot of school earlier but since it was grade school and such they always let it slide). I'm supposed to be in 12th grade right now but due to the inability to keep a normal sleep cycle I've pretty much given up on that. I even tried home school which worked out fine for a little while until my sleep cycle decided morning was night. Anyways I'm almost 18 and would love to talk to other people about this. If you or anyone else would like to talk about this you can email me
28-hour day?
Has anyone tried a 28-hour day? I figured out that 24*7=168, as does 28*6, so if you are self-employed or have a flexible work schedule, you could theoretically follow a schedule of six 28-hour days. After figuring this out, I looked it up on the Internet and found that it is an actual known theory of time management that has also been researched in scientific sleep studies. Just wondering whether anyone with Non-24 has found this to be a workable solution... I've been trying bright light therapy for about a week, and it does seem to be helping somewhat, but I want to have a backup plan that doesn't involve medication in case this doesn't work.
I tried running everything
I tried running everything from 25 to 33 hour weeks, planned them in spreadsheets so I'd know in advance which days gave me optimal daylight/business hours, but it just didn't work - my sleep/wake was as erratic as ever. I think some people have an extended cycle that's regular, some of us (me anyway) it just seems like our body clock is literally broken and won't respond to ANY regulation. I'm 39 and have been dealing with this all my life, and at no time have I been able to establish a regular cycle of any length.
That's an interesting theory
That's an interesting theory but your hours would still be moving forward 4 hours a day. So there would still be days where you would sleep all day and stay up all night. Which means you would be missing school, work, ect.
It depends on how you are
It depends on how you are able to ararnge your week. I came up with a 28-hour-day schedule where Friday and Saturday were dark and the 9-5 hours were fully available on Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday wake-up at 9am and Thursday wake-up at 1pm. It wouldn't work for high school, but it's pretty easy to fit a university schedule into those windows. Then I used chronotherapy to push my sleep window into the proper window for that schedule and was able to make doctor's appointments, classes, church, etc. regularly for the first time in years.
Good to finally put a name to the disorder
Self diagnosed at the moment but i'm pretty certain i have this disorder.
All through school i'd be arriving late for having to force myself up and on school holidays when left to my own devices i'd run a cycle. When i was 14 my friends noticed i had real bad sleeping patterns cause i'd be riding around at 6 or 7 in the morning and their parents would be asking me why am i up so early and i'd be like i haven't been to sleep yet. All through the longer christmas break holidays i'd run through full cycles and trying to correct the cycles (staying up till about 8 at night to get to sleep at a better time and wake up at a better time would make things worse)
I knew i had a problem when i was working nightfill at a supermarket and running through the cycles i'd be sleeping in and waking up late to go to a job that started at 7 at night!!! Yawning at work one time my boss asked me why i was so tired and i said it's because i'm trying to change my sleeping pattern again and he said again?? you might want to see why you have to change it all the time. (when my sleeping patterns get out of hand according to work/daylight times i'll attempt to change them by staying up untill a socially acceptable time to go to sleep)
Lately i always seem to be running through cycles and i know in about 3 weeks from now i'll be more awake during the day but at the moment i'm more awake at night which sucks as i have to miss out on activities during the day cause i'll be just too tired.
Doctors don't seem to diagnose this because it seems if it isn't insomnia you don't have a sleep disorder.
First off I think the reason
First off I think the reason why most doctors don't diagnose this is because it's an extremely rare disorder. Since they don't see it very often they probably forget it even exists.
Anyways I'm almost 18 (I will be in april 2010) and I have just self diagnosed myself with non-24 too. I think it would be really neat to talk to others with this for support and to share ideas of how to control it. If you would like to talk to someone about it you can email me
"This thread brings tears to my eyes",
...someone said earlier, and I understand this fully, because now I have tears in my eyes. My syndrome has been getting worse for the last few years, and this year has been exceptionally bad. I also suffer from personal sorrows right now, which can only worsen the situation; the anonymity rul prevents me from talking about them, though. There are times, even days, when I sleep better, when I sleep normally among normal people, when I have reasons to wake up early every morning, when life is good, but when these few - so few! - golden days are over, the same horrendous cycle begins again.
Towards the darkness again? Sumbody feeling sorrow and pity
NON 24 HR.
Some of you might find this interesting. I have had the disorder (26 to 28 hr. cycle) for over thirty years. I am a college graduate but have had over 70 jobs in my life. I found myself frequently unable to get out of bed and show up for work. Soon I would abandon the job because of embarrassment from my absenteeism. The desert is a two hr drive for me and I love the desert in the cooler winter months. I am retired and last fall I bought a van so I could sleep in it when I went to the desert.
OK, the interesting part. Over a three month period I was spending four consecutive days and nights a week camped out in the desert. After dark, I would limit any light to avoid advertising my position incase there were any bad guys out there (not being paranoid, just smart). I found myself getting up every morning a couple of hours after daybreak and finally going to sleep between midnight and one AM every day. This got to where I was getting up around seven AM every morning. The interesting thing is that this carried over to the three days I was spending at home each week. This was incredible. I had never experienced this voluntarily. I was able to get so much done. After three months the heat drove me away from the desert and with in a couple weeks I was back to "free running" and have stayed there. I believe the daily exposure to bright sunlight all day and no artificial light after dusk caused my radical experience. In two weeks it will be cool enough to camp in the desert. I am anxiously waiting to try it again and see what happens. I am also investigating light treatment and Melatonin etc. In closing, last night I discovered my diagnosis that has confused me and doctors all my life. I found it in a book "Body clock, guide to better health" which led me to research circadian rhythm sleep disorder. I too have experienced the total look of unbelief from family and friends when I have tried to explain myself and the deep loss of self respect and the respect of others. If the same thing happens on the desert again, I may move out there.
Would you please let me know
Would you please let me know how everything works out for you? I'm looking for anything that can help me live a normal life, as I believe everyone with this disorder is. You can email me
P.S. If you have any other advice I would love to hear it.
25 hours a day
I'm 29/male. I noticed my irregular sleep cycles years ago, but this year I looked it up in the internet and found out I'm non-24. I started to log the times I wake up and go to sleep for weeks, and confirmed they shift daily.
I don't have too much problem with this because I'm self employed and work on deadlines, but it's hard to fit in socially, and also it's depressing and frustrating to wake up in the middle of the night or when people are going to sleep.
I think I may have this...
I'm 15 and as long as I can remember I have never had a regular sleep schedule. It really interferes with my life. It is so hard to wake up and go to school when you have only had a couple hours of sleep,and I end up ditching my friends all the time because I'm ASLEEP, how lame is that? I have tried so many times to regulate my sleeping patterns but I can't keep them normal for more than a couple days. I told my parents that I think I having a sleeping disorder, but I don't think they believe me.
non-24 hour
I understand where you are coming from. If I was you I'd start a sleep schedule. Start writing down what time you go to sleep and what time you get up, including naps. Print off the information on the disorder and show them your sleep schedule and see if they will take you to the doctor. Take the information and sleep schedule with you to the doctor. You can buy melontonin over the counter in the vitamin section at Walmart. Start taking it as directed about an hour before your desired sleep time.
But don't expect miracles. I've had sleep problems my entire life. At age 15 I asked my mom to take me to the doctor to get on sleep medicine. She was outraged and yelled at me. I made it through high school by taking naps when I got home and sleeping when I could. Once I graduated I was on a delayed sleep schedule for about 15 years. Now within the last year I have developed non-24 hour. It doesn't bother me as much as it does some of because I'm on disability due to bipolar disorder and ptsd. I've tried melontonin and it didn't work for me. I have a light box. It's really neat, but I can't say that it works. I've finally given in and allowed my body to sleep when it wants and it great. It doesn't bother me to be up at night because I'm extremely sensitive to the afternoon light. I have friends that are up early in the morning and friends that are up late at night, the early morning hours is my quiet time. But my dad in particular doesn't understand and thinks that I'm lazy and if I talk about it we get into fights about it, so I just don't bring it up.
Boy do I know what you mean.
Boy do I know what you mean. I feel totally lame whenever I ditch my friends to go to sleep. It sucks how no one understands what it's like to have this disorder unless they have it.
Circadian rhythm disorder
This thread brings tears to my eyes. No one truly understands how difficult it is living with this disorder until they experience it for themselves. Words like "lazy" and "worthless" and very painful and I'm sure everyone here knows how it feels to be called that, and don't even get me started about being told that "you could switch your schedule around if you put your mind to it." I've lived with this disorder since I was 14 (20 now) and have been cycling about three hours every single day of my life. I've had to have cycled around the clock at least 1000 times by now. I used to live on the North Shore of Hawaii when I was younger (Pupukea hiking, bodyboaridng, fishing, etc), but moved to Kansas (the hell with the military) and ended up staying in the house and learning how amazing the internet can be (depression is horrible). Kansas is really frickin' lame compared to Hawaii with all its bugs, snakes, and poison everywhere. I refused to go to school and developed delayed sleep phase syndrome as a result of staying up late and free-running (got G.E.D). I'm also a basement dweller and a schizoid (anxiety from childhood), so I didn't see very much light for like four years. One day, I started noticing that I was cycling around the clock and it hasn't changed since then. I've tried getting more sunlight during my daytime schedule (worked on a ranch, farmed plants, mowed grass, tilled ground, landscaped, etc) and don't know if I want to take drugs just to adjust myself to some socially constructed sleep cycle; however, nothing natural seems to work for me. I'm not too sure how to even go about getting the state to recognize this disorder, or if that's even possible since not many doctors seem to take this seriously (they look at you like you're crazy and need psychiatric help). Any helpful information about how to do this would be greatly appreciated (damn near have to beat them over the heads just to get them to listen to you). Thanks for posting this article and I hope everyone here finds the answers they are looking.
I have this. 25-26 hour
I have this.
25-26 hour cycle with a flactuating amplitude of 1-4 hours. . sleep patterns are all over the place. sometimes im able to keep them in check for a couple of days. I go to universtity and my GPA isn't axactly a flat 4.0..
It's so hard to make appointments and its even harder to keep a stable job.
It also takes a toll on my social life.
This condition sometimes causes me ocasional sleep deprivation and once in a while, oversleep.
It has fully blossomed in the recent few years; i cannot precisely establish how long ago. I'm 22 now.
From what I hear from my family I was born with a mild form of sleep disorder (wouldn't fall asleep as a baby according to what my care-takers determined was the norm) and it slowly developed (deteriorated) throughout the years.
I read that 25% of us (circadian rythem disorder cases) also suffer from psychiatric disorders. I may have a very mild form of OCD and recently suffered from a couple of panic attacks not directly related to the condition followed by very severe anxiety, which I have been able to overcome assisted by bezodiazepines. I also have mild ADHD, but that's the least of my problems and i tend to regard it as a personality trait.
I have seen a psychiatrist for my anxiety problems a few times but he doesn't seem to be able to do much for the non-24 - or anything else.
I think that the presence of a significant amount of us imposes a duty on society to accomodate us and grant us accessibility - as in time-flexible jobs - just like it grants accessibility to people with various physical disabilities
"I read that 25% of us
"I read that 25% of us (circadian rythem disorder cases) also suffer from psychiatric disorders."
Don't forget, that's the same percentage as in the general population.
I might have it too :(
I believe I have this too. I have for about two years now, been experiencing free running sleep. I thought I was responsible for it cause I never really tried too hard to wake up at the same time every single day, even though still I was in school.
I basically go to bed when I feel tired because I can not sleep if I'm not tired. And I happen to get tired about 1-2 hour later each day which is one of the reasons I believe I have this.
I sometime, due to lack of sleep or just because I'm tired, manage to fall asleep like 6 hours before I'm "supposed" to. But when I do that, I usually wake up in a couple of hours and then I can't go to sleep when I'm "supposed" to. Instead I get tired maybe 4-5 hours later than the day before and when I finally go to sleep "for real" I wake up about 4-5 hours later. Eventually, I go to sleep and wake up two times a day and it will revert to "normal" after a few days.
I've failed school a few times. At first I thought it was because of lack of motivation but when I read about this, I'm not too sure.
So what do you think? Am I affected by non-24? I wish I had a job and were motivated enough to actually try to wake up at the same time each day. But on the other hand. If a "normal" person goes to sleep only when he's tired and wakes up whenever he feels like it, would they still keep the 24-hour rhythm?
Sorry to say - I think you have it
You said:
"So what do you think? Am I affected by non-24?"
Yes, I think you have it, but please do not panic. It is possible to live with this syndrome. It will destroy many things in your life, especially if you are young. You cannot work at normal times, and might be hard to finish your studies.
I have suffered from this for a long time now.
You also say:
"I sometime, due to lack of sleep or just because I'm tired, manage to fall asleep like 6 hours before I'm "supposed" to. But when I do that, I usually wake up in a couple of hours and then I can't go to sleep when I'm "supposed" to."
This is very familiar to me too.
Unfortunately there is nothing else that I can do to support you than my sympathy. When I have to be awake the whole f*ing night, nothing to do, a total dysphoria, nothing in life that inspirates me, I sometimes listen to music - mostly some Ukrainian music about sails nowadays, but also some else string instruments. I know this is a cold comfort to you. There is no solution.
I belong to that group that has "related psychiatric problems". Sometimes I drink too much. When I drink a lot, I can sometimes get to sleep at normal times. But you know that it is no solution.
I'd like to see more comments here
One of the messages above is mine. I come here now and then, but it is disappointing to see that the conversation has ended and that there are no more comments.
Are we that rare? We sighted non-24's?
Could we found a society for hypernychthemerals? :) I am at your disposal.
Please, sister and brothers! Tell about your experiences and feelings.
It's good to know that there
It's good to know that there are others suffering the same thing I am. I'm only 14, and I'm already sick of hearing people say that I can 'change my schedule if I put my mind to it". I've been hearing it since I was 6, and it just doesn't work..
I'm currently homeschooled, and that's okay, thought I do miss being around other kids. To me, it's better than going through school on little to no sleep. (I left school at 8, and had already been having this 'problem' for 2-3 years) What's worse, is that my dad is considering putting me back in a public high school, and with my sleep pattern, I don't know if I could handle it.
It's absolutely awful in the area I live (everyone here acts like a clone), and when I told my new doctor that I new what was wrong with my sleep pattern, and told her what it was, she actually looked at me and asked me if I was making the whole thing up!
I am curious as to why it effects some of us, and not others... I seem to be the only person in the house to suffer with this, so no one else really understands what it's like. My dad doesn't like the fact that he doesn't get to spend time with me, because I get up as he goes to bed, or he gets home as I'm going to sleep. His girlfriend feels trapped because she doesn't have a job currently, and she doesn't want to wake me up when I'm asleep during the day. My mom seemed to be purely noctournal. It was rare for her to be awake during the day, but if she wanted to, she could switch schedules for weeks at a time, where the longest I've managed a semi-normal schedule is one week..
I have been saying this for
I have been saying this for years but like many who have posted here, explaining the notion of a 27 hour day to someone with a 'normal' sleep cycle, only invites a wealth of information on 'insomnia.' I try to explain that I have no trouble sleeping...then I get lost when attempting to describe being awake for 20 hours then sleeping for 7 to 8 hours, which leaves me refreshed and healthy - if I do this on a regular schedule. The next thing I usually hear is "well, if you just went to bed at the same time every night then..." or, "are you depressed?" or my favorite, "maybe you can take something for that, my shrink gave me..." I feel like I have met "my people" by reading this article and some of the replies. Does anyone know where I could find more information on this topic, such as medical studies/clinical information? Anyway, glad yet sad to know I am not alone in this. Good luck all.
The wikipedia entry on
The wikipedia entry on non-24 links to a couple different studies, you might want to check those out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_24-hour_sleep-wake_syndrome
Also, the talkaboutsleep.com message board has a long thread about non-24 that contains a lot of information about medication etc.
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-boards/viewtopic.php?t=9654
And finally the b-society website has a thread about DSPS and non-24.
http://www.b-society.org/node/113
join support
Hi all
I have had some problems in my life with sleep also. For non-24 I have heard that light restriction during the evening is more important than light therapy in the day. Come to experience project and join the group for dsps - we can share experiences, frustrations and solutions!
support
I'd love to join a support group for people with non-24 hour, if you know of one. But I don't have dsps anymore so I don't want to join that. Do you know of a support group for non-24 hour?
I just self-diagnosed myself
I am an elderly man who has always been a night-owl, but in the last few years my sleep cycle has begun to rotate around the clock. I found this diagnosis - Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Syndrome - only tonight. I am European, it is soon morning, and here I am... No hope for sleep.
In fact my sleeping pattern has always had a tendency to go around the clock, if I have been left alone, with no work or other social duties, but the last few years - maybe five years - have been impossible. I am not working right now, and it is possible to do all the banking and similar things thru the Internet, but still: this symptom is debilitating and depressing.
You, the other posters and readers at this board, you know how it feels to wake up at 12 at noon... then at 13.30... then at three... soon at eight in the evening... then at eleven at night!! Nothing is gloomier, nothing is more unreal than opening your eyes at midnight.
Good to know that there are others like me in this world. And good to know that it may be possible to control your sleep cycle, though there is no actual cure for this symptom.
maybe genetic?
I'm facing the same problem. Trying to adjust to university lessons pattern I've ended up with a severe insomnia. However, the most interesting fact in my case is that it seems that this disorder can be inherited genetically. My brother also faces the non-24 syndrome problem and as far as I know so does my father and did my grandfather. I've said "as far as I know" because my father seems to be ashamed of it and claims he's healthy, however I can see his struggles with the syndrome especially during some holidays, when one can sleep longer and doesn't have to awake at fixed hours. I agree that the society should be make aware that there exist people with such a problem. Also some deeper research should be carried on, to check whether the syndrome is inherited genetically and whether it is a disease of civilisation.
I have had it for 12 years and seen all the top docs
There is no cure. I almost committed suicide because of this. I graduated from Harvard and somehow managed to function there beyond all odds. I have the personality type that is a perfectionist who must succeed against all odds (hence, Harvard) but this is more relentless than cancer. This disorder has destroyed more of my life than I can even fathom. I am now almost 30 years old and I've missed out on a great deal of my life. I have mostly worked for 1 company, and it has been incredibly difficult to pull of my "personal days" to coincide with my re-cycling days. Nobody understands it. Everyone thinks it is laziness. If I did not have Harvard on my resume, I'm sure I'd have been fired by now (still not too late - economy is horrible and I've made my bed...literally and figuratively). This disorder must be recognized by the ADA .. it is a disability beyond anything I have ever experienced.
I hear their is a rise in
I hear their is a rise in people with this disorder in Japan, and some studies are being done there, in the us the studies focus on the blind with N24. Maybe we need to speak out for awareness and we will get some attention. I mean it worked for autism right?
does this condition have a medical name?
Have the "top docs" been able to shed light on this condition? Or, is it just that there been no credible studies that place this condition in the medical journals? So far the only places I have found info are sites like this where there is more anecdotal info than clinical study. I live on a 20hr up 7-8hrs down cycle (28hr day) and manage using the "weekly all-nighter/always tired" method. Up until 3 yrs ago I worked on deadlines but this has been an awful situation since then. Do you have any info or leads to where I might find medical information on this condition? And, do the 'top docs' have a name for this condition? Any info would be greatly appreciated, and the best of luck to you. I feel for ya, really.
I read all these comments,
I read all these comments, and I seem to be the only current student. I'm in high school, positive that this is my problem, had it since 8th grade. My attendance record is horrible: last year, I was threatened with being tried for something or another. During the summer, it's great, I feel great. But during the school year, I just cannot Force myself up every day. What's worse is having all the teachers and friends just look at you like you're lying, or using it as an excuse. My grades suffer because of it. Even if they think they understand, I don't think they know what it's like to be constantly hounded by teachers for something you can't control, all the while feeling exhausted...
Been n24 all my life, time to wake society up to it perhaps?
I've had this all my life, I'm nearly forty, and it caused me SO much grief throughout school.... finally managed to work from home and I agree with the topmost anonymous poster, why should we be drugged with mind-altering stuff just because of the way we are?
Left alone to live my life to my internal clock, I'm perfectly healthy and as mentally and emotionally balanced as anyone - hell, more than plenty of folks I can think of!
No-one expects society to change to accomodate us, but a wider understanding that this exists, it's real, and we're not just LAZY would be good.
People still tell me I need to just "force myself" out of bed at the same time each day: albeit, 3 hours before I'm ready to wake up, because my days are 26, now pushing 27, hours long. And sure, I can do that for an important meeting, or two, but every day for the rest of my life?! Give me a break - sleep deprivation's a form of torture, and I'm damned if I'm going to torment myself into an early grave for no good reason.
Sorry for the rant, one thing I must say is it's good to read so many comments, though I'm sorry it has to happen to anyone, because I know it's a hard journey before the truth becomes apparent.
We really need to unite on this one because even Wikipedia's entry is still making it seem like it only happens as a rare pathology, whereas the reality is, whatever the cause, someone out there is suffering right now because they don't know this exists.
Me too!!!
I've had this condition since I was around twelve and only found out it's name now.
My (probably worthless) advice to all the other non-24ers is either work from home, or find a job with very flexible hours. It is so nice, not having to pull those all-nighters just to get to work on time.
Oh, and if you're in school - my condolences.
N-24: A mind is a terrible thing to waste
finally...i think n-24 describes the symptoms i've been having for the last 10 years or so. if left alone for an extended period of a week or more, i will sleep for 12-18 hours and then be awake for 24-30 hours. during november 2007 i kept a detailed sleep log and found that i averaged 37 hours awake, then 19 hours asleep. despite seeing sleep doctors, i never got a diagnosis that fit these symptoms. as a result of all this i have lost my 30-year career as a scientist, despite having an extremely flexible schedule allowed to me(it was ok to work anytime in the 24-hour day,but i could not work at home), because,after many years of doing so, i suddenly could no longer manage to work 40 hours during a 168-hour week since October 2006. the symptoms have basically ruined my life, despite a very understanding family. now i must hope for a new career that can be done at home. also i'm very skeptical that light therapy or melatonin treatment can even make a dent in my totally erratic schedule.
King Midas?
I've known about N-24 for years before finding that the disease was known to medicine. I am 25 years old, and I have had a "circadian" rhythm of well over 24 hours since I was approximately 12 years old. I have been homeschooled following sixth grade (and I've never regretted it for an instant). I haven't been Non-24 diagnosed yet, due to fear of a misdiagnosis (stemming in part from a recent diagnosis and prescription for attention defecit disorder).
Extending my sleep schedule to 48 hours by means of meditative "reduced energy states" allowed me to hold a daily job for one year, but the necessity of medication breaks in the ADD prescription (to avoid tolerance build-up and exhaustion) meant frequent problems.
Without the medication I have very limited control (or close to none at all) over a 36 hour sleep schedule. I've attempted light and melatonin therapies on my own, and had distressingly unpleasant results.
I'm still hopeful that I will find a career in which the ability (and necessity) of working an extremely long shift will be beneficial rather than abysmal.
To other N-24 sufferers: Don't give up on turning your curse into a blessing. If the world can't find a use for you, find a use for the world.
what about kids with this?
Our son (19 months old) is a dreadful sleeper - always has been! We've had a sleep study done and by process of emilniation our physician thinks our son has this 25-26 hour cycle. WE are beside ourselves in trying to cope as he seems to want to go to bed at 11pm! Would love to hear if anyone has any experience with managing this in kids. thanks
My daughter (18 months) has
My daughter (18 months) has never settled into a normal (or even consistent) sleep pattern. Up through 7 months it was a fight just to get her to bed by 3:00am. Then my husband suggested we slowly move the schedule forward until we got to normal acceptable hours. It would last about 5-7 days before slipping later again no matter how hard we tried all of the suggestions regarding having a bedtime routine and trying to stick to the schedule without variation.
Since then we have cycled at least 8-10 times (about once a month) and she won't stick to any bedtime more than a few nights in a row. I recently began describing it as if her internal clock told her there were 25 hours in a day instead of 24. I stumbled upon the Wikipedia article and found this blog just today, and it is wonderful just to know my daughter is not the only person (or only child, especially) with this problem. It is nice to know it is not just because I am failing at trying to "make" her sleep.
I think I have always had some sleep issues myself (as a "night person"), but not like her non-24 rotating schedule. It is a bit draining on me to cater to her sleep-wake schedule; however, we tried the sleep-deprivation thing and she becomes an absolute monster if she is not allowed to sleep the full amount of time she naturally desires. When she sleeps on her own schedule, she is just fine otherwise. My mom has dubbed her "the energizer bunny" due to how it will be the middle of the night and my daughter is acting like it's the middle of the day because she has so much energy.
As a family we always strive for natural cures to health problems and I plan to experiment with treating it as a possible nutritional deficiency (I have read of vitamin D, B12, magnesium and zinc deficiencies being related to sleep disorders). Anything that affects melatonin production will be of interest. If we find a "cure" I will surely return to this website and proclaim it to the world.
"My daughter (18 months) has
"My daughter (18 months) has never settled into a normal (or even consistent) sleep pattern. Up through 7 months it was a fight just to get her to bed by 3:00am. Then my husband suggested we slowly move the schedule forward until we got to normal acceptable hours. It would last about 5-7 days before slipping later again no matter how hard we tried all of the suggestions regarding having a bedtime routine and trying to stick to the schedule without variation."
What you did is called "chronotherapy" and there have been documented cases where a person was a late sleeper, used chronotherapy to fix it, and converted to non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder as a result!
non-24 in children
I believe my daughter has non-24. She is currently 29 months old. I have struggled with her sleep since her birth. Our latest bedtime was 4 am, and that's WITH constantly waking up her from bedtime and naps so that her sleep doesn't get later. I finally had to get more aggressive. I started waking her up a bit earlier every few days and trying to keep her consistent at 2 hours per day. We've managed to push it back about 3 hours, but it's a never-ending battle. If we were to let her sleep according to her normal rhythms, she'd be back at the 4am bedtime within days. It's awful to have a child who's always sleepy. It's also tough because you can't get a lot of support. People think you're crazy and are simply not disciplined enough with your child. I found that my daughter had a predictably consistent number of waking hours per day (14 in her case, which left 10 hours for sleep). Of course, she would prefer to sleep more. So, if I let her sleep just under 10 hours per day, her sleep schedule would get progressively earlier. You will have to comfort your child because this will create some sleep deprivation and crankiness, but, it will make your life more manageable in the end.
non-24 in children
I meant to say "keep her NAP consistent at 2 hours"
if your rich its fine, but
if your rich its fine, but if you need to make money its a serious problem. and sleep deprevation can cause temporary insanity, loss of logic and common sense aswell as the ability to think clearly and protect yourself.
i know for sure this is what
i know for sure this is what i have and been dealing with for years, its incredibly hard to keep a normal job that requiers you to be alert and focused ( every job that isn't done from home ) i can't explain why i'm not in sync with are solar system all i can say is i need to fix this problem or i will never have the life i want and i'm capable of living. i'm gonna go to a sleep clinic here in Vancouver Canada, and hopefully fix this or live with my parents forever broke as fuck.
Thanks for describing the effect of N24
Most of my student-years have been affected by N24 and most of the people around me consider it as some sort of an excuse :-) .
I am 55 years old and have
I am 55 years old and have been planning to go to a 30 hour day as soon as I retire. I do not believe I could make this schedule work while employed. I am so happy to know that I am not the only person that suffers from this. About 4 years ago, I started having "spells" were I would completely space out. I could not make my mouth work to say what I was thinking. But it would be extremely difficult to stay aware of what was going on around me. I could come back for a few seconds and then I would be gone again. After 2 years of testing. and repeat testing and repeat again testing. The thought was that I must be having a seizure of some kind. I'm now taking medication for seizures and have not had a complete spell since. At the time the doctor said that sleep depravation can cause seizures. My husband died 6 months ago. Since then I have been having a lot of trouble getting to bed. When I get to bed I can sleep. I just cannot get to bed.
And Now I see again how easy it would be to slip into a 30 hour cycle. What I do not understand from the explanation above is Why do we have to treat this? Not everyone is the same every one is different. Not every one has a normal temperature of 98.6. We do not treat people whose normal is lower or higher that 98.6. We do not make their bodies stay at 98.6. Why are people talking about treating this? If this is our normal why cannot we just keep it that way. It seems to me by making me conform to a 24 hour day is what has caused my health problems.