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The Science of Homosexuality
Homosexuality is an issue that has sparked tumultuous debate in the United States, and has been brought to the forefront in the last fifty to sixty years. While the legal and social implications has captured the attention of the media, the lingering question of biology remains at the core of the debate. Is it possible that one is born with the characteristic of being homosexual, or is it solely a learned behavior embedded in cultural norms? Researchers since the nineteen-fifties have studied homosexuality in a variety of ways, through genetics, animal behavior, and even birth order. While few have come to a conclusive answer, important progress has been made since the time homosexuality was merely considered a mental disorder that could be cured.
In the March 2004, Health and Medicine Week, research findings from the study of homosexuality in rams was published. Scientists at Oregon Health and Science University School of Medicine had looked at the biological foundations of a male sheep's homosexuality. They used the animals since they had been consistently and thoroughly studied in the past, and provided for a controllable experiment. They studied the oSDN, "an irregularly shaped, densely packed cluster of nerve cells in the hypothalamus of the sheep brain." The hypothalamus is an important part of the brain that regulates body temperature, blood pressure, as well as sexual behavior. Researchers found that the ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus (oSDN) was larger and contained more neurons in male- oriented rams (1). This information is important in several different ways. While it is solely a study on ram behavior, it is believed that homosexuality can be found in many different species, not limited to humans. This is also important because it is the first study to show a relationship between variations in sexual partner preference and brain structure in an animal, which could provide insight into how humans are studied and what should be looked for in humans to unlock the clues of biological causes of homosexuality.
While the rams are an interesting case study, there are also research findings directly relating to humans. The prenatal hormone theory is a provocative explanation of the link between biology and homosexual tendencies. It is based on the idea that hormones can affect a fetus in the womb and can influence brain development. Studies on the neuroendocrine function in homosexuality has shown that while levels of testosterone and estrogen do not typically vary along the lines of homo and heterosexuality, it is one's response mechanisms to these hormones that can play a role in sexual orientation. It is far too basic to attribute homosexuality with a lack of testosterone in males and a lack of estrogen in women, and many studies have negated this idea. However, the central nervous system, which mediates behavior and physiological responses, can be heavily affected by the level of hormones present (2).
It is also believed that birth order has a direct relation to whether or not one is gay. It is possible that a woman's fetus builds up certain antibodies in her first pregnancy, if it is with a male, to male antibodies, and these affect the development of male fetuses in subsequent pregnancies (4). For each older brother, humans are believed to be approximately 33% more likely to be homosexual. In other studies, it has been found that homosexuals are 39% more likely to be left- handed than heterosexuals (3).
Biological study of sexual orientation is not without its flaw. It has been criticized in the scientific world for reducing the subject to simplistic sides of homo and hetero sexual behavior. Simon LeVay is a scientist who has published extensive research on the difference in biology between homo and heterosexuals. In Science magazine in1991, Thomas A. Schoenfeld writes about his work and the faults he finds with LeVays work. Schoenfeld states that biology cannot always be viewed as something that runs against social environment and upbringing, "It is all too common to see early experience, social learning, or choice pitted against biology, but these are false dichotomies" (5). Rather it is the genetic and biological traits that lead to predisposition towards certain behavior characteristics. This approach allows for the biological factors in homosexuality, without limiting the subject to exclusively culture or biology.
All of the research that has surfaced in the past century reflects an interesting pattern of social acceptability of homosexuality. What was once thought of as a negative and controllable defect, is now recognized and embraced by many. While society is far from fully accepting homosexuality as a cultural norm, it has entered the public sphere as a subject worthy of discourse, rather than feared and ignored. It is in this sense that scientists are able to invest more of their time and money into researching homosexuality. In addition, the study of homosexuality itself both in its cultural causes and social effects, such as AIDS, depression, gender roles, marriage laws, has gained world wide attention. The research presented is far from conclusive, and generally generates more questions than it answers. It is uncertain whether or not humans will truly understand the relationship between nature and nurture and the intricate balance of biological or genetic effects and learned cultural behavior. After seeing some of the evidence about biological theories of homosexuality, I am not completely convinced of researchers conclusions. However, I do believe that it presents the interesting point that one cannot consider homosexuality to be a purely psychological or behavioral characteristic, completely disregarding any evidence of biological or genetic influence. After all, in our society, where in some places homosexuals are treated with little respect, and often times, are met with hostility, why would one choose to be gay?
Works Cited
1) "Biology is Behind Homosexuality in Sheep, Study Confirms." Health and Medicine Week (2004): 422. ProQuest. Bryn Mawr College Canaday Library. 25 Sept. 2006 <http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?did=588863761&Fm t=3&clientId= 42764&RQT=309&VName=PQD>.
2) Diamant, Louis. Male and Femal Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Cambridge: Hemisphere Corporation, 1987. 129-153.
3) Kristof, Nicholas D. "Gay At Birth?" New York Times (2003): a19. ProQuest. Bryn Mawr College Canaday Library. 24 Sept. 2006 <http://proquest. umi.com /pqdweb ?did=430686171&Fmt=2&clientId=42764&RQT=309&V Name=PQD
4) Levay, Simon. "The Biology of Sexual Orientation." Homepage of Simon LeVay. Feb. 2006. 25 Sept.2006 <http://members.aol.com/slevay /page22.html#_Brain _stud ies%97function>.
5) Schoenfeld, Thomas A. "Biology and Homosexuality." Science 254 (1991): 630. JStor. Bryn Mawr College Canaday Library. 25 Sept. 2006 <http://links.js tor.org/sici?sici= 0036-8075%2819911101%2 93%3A254%3A503 2%3C630%3ABAH %3E2.0.CO%3B2-9>.
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| This paper reflects the research and thoughts of a student at the time the paper was written for a course at Bryn Mawr College. Like other materials on Serendip, it is not intended to be "authoritative" but rather to help others further develop their own explorations. Web links were active as of the time the paper was posted but are not updated. |
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Comments
Stupid!!
How offensive can your comment be to a Gay man that doesn't choose to be this way. You are the sort of person that i would class as homophobic. We have these so called 'ridiculous' parades to show countries like Iran that hanging Gay people is not acceptable. You do not need to have them as a straight person because that sort of behaviour doesn't happy with hetrosexual people. You are I'm sorry to say narrow minded.
Disagreement
You obviously don't know a lot about the subject you're arguing about. And heterosexual people haven't had a terrible past of oppression and hurt, so it's understandable that homosexuals would like to show their pride to people like you and display how much they couldn't care less what you have to say. And by the way, homosexual behaviors are widespread throughout many varying animal species, not JUST in humans. It happens regularly in animal species because it is not looked down upon (obviously considering animals do not judge each other), nor to they have a man-made religion to follow or any form of culture that views homosexuality as wrong. It's a normal and natural thing to see... It may seem like an "abnormality that needs to be fixed" in your eyes, but the population is not going to "dwindle down to nothing" because part of our population is homosexual, as much as your fearful christian mind may think. But of course you, nor I can change the way other people are. I can't understand why you would even be on this page if you're not going to make a reasonable argument on homosexuality and why it happens. All you basically said was that it's an abnormality and it's a problem. How is it hurting you personally? It isn't. I don't see your whole life being destroyed and your capability to have children being ruined because there are homosexuals. So in that case, don't even bother worrying about it.
Your self defeating theory is
Your self defeating theory is completely retarded. I am a 29 year old women and I am GAY! I am also Christian and I absolutely support STRAIGHT people! If not for them, I would not be here. Gay people can't reproduce, obviously! But straight people are the ones who produce gay people. Gay people will be here as long as straight people keep making us. We'll never be defeated unless we all "turn" gay! LOL luckily it's not that easy, eh? Thank The Good Lord! If every couple in the universe was able to reproduce, there would already be too many people on this planet. Gay is just nature's way of correcting itself. Consider us "gays" doing you and your children, and their children, a favor. You're welcome :)
Kudos
Thanks for sending a proper Christian message to those that are self-righteous because they believe their Christianity better than you or I. I just had this argument with another self-righteous human who could only quote me scripture to tell me I am wrong in believing that homosexuality is a choice. I may be heterosexual but that wasn't by choice. Choice is something you control. God made me this way as He has made you homosexual and my daughter with disabilities and my very Christian grandmother mentally ill. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way comparing homosexuality to such issues just explaining the difference between choice and nature. Homosexuality is doesn't have a cure and should never be treated as a disease or as a sin (since sinning is a choice as well).
Christian who so believe they are doing the right thing in condemning homosexuals are just sending the message that they are truly hypocritical. Christians are suppose to love their neighbour as themselves and not cast judgement upon others. Anyone claiming to be Christian yet speaks as they do about homosexuality where there isn't 1 scripture in the bible to stand behind their belief have more to worry about come judgement day than those who accept and still claim Christianity as it is suppose to be.
Gay Christains
You cannot be a Christian and be gay. In order to have a relationship with God you can't be in constant sin. Do you just entirely disregard the Bible or have you written your own set of rules? I don't understand how you think blatantly disregarding His law is being Christian. If you don't believe that homosexuality is incorrect based on your beliefs as a Christian then you really are not a Christian. I'm assuming you are saying so believing it gives you some sort of strategic advantage when arguing the topic.
You are human. Humans lust,
You are human. Humans lust, always. It's our #1 sin, I'd say. In a brief flash of two milliseconds, you can lust after another and schluff it off as though it didn't happen. Jesus says that lust = adultery. You lust always. You are a perpetual sinner. Therefore, you are not a Christian. According to you. Enjoy your trip to hell!
you just sinned by casting
you just sinned by casting judgement on someone else and refusing to love your neighbour as yourself. There is no scripture that says homosexuality is wrong. It says LUST is wrong! Heterosexual can lust all they want and that isn't wrong? Your sin is no different than anyone else's just because you claim to be Christian. And unless you can read Hebrew there is only translations of the bible that our multitude of religions want us to believe not 1 is the literal translation of the original written word.
Being Christian doesn't protect you from God's rath come judgement day. What does is how you chose to live the life God gave you, what choices you made and if you actually recognize and request forgiveness EVERYTIME you sin.
You should stop believing in
You should stop believing in god. I don't, and I'm heterosexual. With religion causing wars all over the world and even minuscule political arguments that arise from church, it's degradation to society is obvious. Even if you want to bargain with social church groups that help people in hardship around the world. Other groups that are not religious do the same. Every day churches are accepting more and different ideas that were previously shunned. Why have bibles been written and translated into new ones since our religious beginnings? To accommodate our current changing beliefs and values. The example of gays now being accepted into churches is an example. I can show you where homosexuals are not tolerated in any religious scripture. Being homosexual is obviously either a biological flaw or an annoying flamboyant person who believes their opinion matters. Our own political correctness keeps you from seeing good arguments on television because feelings would get hurt. Either way, its hard to find enjoyment conversing with someone who's life is revolved around their decision of sexual behavior. Their own vocation to this causes homosexuals to speak about sexual behaviors at in appropriate times or feel mentally a step ahead of the heterosexual individual when the media tells them that it is "OK". If it is OK to be gay then that would mean that homosexuals are more intelligent on average then the heterosexual individual at initiation of the very first homosexual act by homo-sapiens.
Covertly Multipying Actually
How do we know being straight isn't an abnormality that needs to be "fixed"? I doubt being gay will work itself out of the gene pool anytime soon (if that is even how this works) because many straight married people with children are secretly gay.
At this point in human existence the earth is heavily populated beyond capacity and not having children right now is actually good for the environment.
As for the parades, all groups have their extremists and their passionate activists. It gets attention. Being flamboyant comes with being gay sometimes, it's a human trait and it's not harming anyone physically, mentally or emotionally. Imagine what it'd be like if everyone else in the world was gay and you were one of a few straight people. How would it feel seeing others being affectionate to their lovers and living their lives free of unwarranted ridicule while you either hide your real self for fear of being attacked or live your life in agony. Imagine the constant weight on your shoulders from having to be someone you're not because others unable to get past their roadblocks to accepting others for who they are whether they be tax collectors, prostitutes or the man that will do the devils bidding for 30 pieces of silver. There's an imbalance in how people are treating certain groups.
Straight people don't have to proclaim they're straight because it's assumed in this society and a society that doesn't accommodate diversity is an unsavory thought as you could imagine unless I'm a clone then maybe I'll be okay with it.
Right now these people don't need ridicule they need acceptance. What will come of that we don't know but that's the right thing to do.
h
It's not fixing it that sounds offensive. If scientists find a way to alter someones sexual preferences then the only ones that'll be going through this is the few mistreated homosexuals who are socially accepted to the point of suicide. But for the most part it's their love. They're not going too change their sexual preferences for a fictional book that says a magic man In the sky doesn't accept him. Get with the times brotha.
Thank you all for contribution...!
I dearly thank all for the contribution. I am an african student of Anthropology in one of the farmous faculties in Brasil. For me, a homosexuality as it is, I believe is not something one is born with, it is not inert. When one is born, the environment shapes him or her to be what he/she is. I am doing a research over the subject as my final thesis, and fortunately I met some friends of mine who are gays and some told me that at a certain age of maturity they had wet dreams over the opposite sex...! It is a prove for me that it is something one gets after birth- no matter the age that one acquires this.
Also there are some men born with some "defects" in their physical sex organs- like having small penis or without "balls" ...etc. this could be another cause for one to like the same sex to satisfy what he is missing!
All in all we have to accept the presence of the "special" people in our societies... they make a part of us. If I am a gay, I dont ask for food in your doorway, why should you become harsh against me? There is no reason ... leave me alone ...stop harrassing other people... they owe nothing to your account!!!
why?
I am also left handed adn i also see many left handed pepole around, but i dont think that it can be true.
we are talking about
we are talking about homosetuality dear so be in top
What It's About
I chose to write with my left hand because it feels natural to me. I feel a little jealous of right handed people sometimes because no one bothers them or really pays much attention to them. Everyone pretty much leaves them alone. But my writing looks just as good as any right-handed person.I don't remember when I ever decided that I was left-haned, or even if there was even ever a choice to begin with. I really don't think science should be wasting their time trying to find out why it is I write with my left-hand. It seems like a load of folly to me. Is it because most people are right-handed and they think it's some kind of psychological, behavioral, birth-problem behind it? That's SO stupid!
My grandpa use to tell me about when he was teased and punished terribly by the religious people for being left-handed. He hated being left-handed so he tried and tried and tried to change. Eventually he figured out how to get by with writing with his right hand. Eventually he was print somewhat legibly and pass as a right-hander. And you just can't win because people then teased him about his bad handwriting. It wasn't natural for him and everyone knew it, yet he continued because he did not want to feel shame.
Homosexuality is a kind of left-handedness. It's too bad Heterosexuals believe that homosexuals can write with their right hand if they chose to. That if they could it would be more "natural" for them.
I've only known two people who could write well with both hands. I think it's the coolest thing. Very rare.
gay marriage
I dont support gay marriage for any reason whatsoever
Gay Marraige
It is nobody place to say what's right and wrong for we have all messed up somewhere somehow!!! And for you to say that you do not support gay, they cannot choose to be gay any more they you can chose to be straight. Everyone deserves love. As long as they're happy! Why do you care? I support gay marriage!!!!!!!
Begging for hatred?
In no way do I plead for your ignorant mind to study a reason behind your comments and it's desperate attempt for negative attention. Nor do I feel any form of hatred or resentment towards you. All that I ask is for you to not be afraid to show your name when hiding behind ridiculously uneducated comments that could possibly invoke fear in young gay minds searching for an answer as to why they are the way they are in a society that finds it difficult to accept them. If its because of religion that you feel this way, I suggest you focus your energy on searching for the answers to the questions your nobel leaders (whoever they/it/he is/are) choose to steer you from by suggesting for example that science is merely a test put there to challenge your faith. Knowledge can be a powerful tool for a growing mind no matter how far along their development has progressed. Please try and open your mind to a world of realistic possibilities, including the one that your insecurities can be effecting you and your peers in an enormous way whether you mean to or not. Whether people are born gay or not, It's the way they are. Change is possible for many aspects of life, it's difficult to say if its true for a human to change their sexual preference, especially under the pressure of a life without their own society recognising the FACT that homosexuality is real and if you believe that your no more important or better in any way, than another human being on earth, which should be the case, than you should have no reason to disagree that marriage between a man and a woman is no different that two of the same sex. In no way possible can the marriage of a gay couple interfere with your life on any level.
Love itself?
I had an epifany! How are we supposed to discover what causes homosexuality when nobody is absolutly certain what love is? I'm not talking about hormonal urges. I'm talking 'stare into your muddy brown eyes all eternity and be happy' sort of love. Can somebody tell why I feel like my heart is going to blow up when a loved one hurts me? Don't say its all in my head, if you do then tell me this; What part of my brain causes my heart to feel like it is literally dieing? Being gay bi lesbian staight pansexual trans etc is just a bunch of discription words for love, I think. Don't hate. Worse than drugs.
Get used to it society!!!
I have noticed that the responce to homosexuality is much like the responce america had to african americans post civil war. Marriage rights were limited, shunned by many churches, called hateful names etc. Now most people look back at what we did and think "That is dispicable! How could we do such a thing? ITS NOT FAIR!!!" But look at homosexualiy, pansexuality, bisexuality etc and think "Ew." Why? I see people turn away as if it is indecent when same sex couples kiss, but find it sweet or cute when opposite sex couples do. I can only hope in a few years rather than decades people will understand that it makes no difference... they are normal people too. Sometimes opposites attract, other times not. The world won't always fit that perfect picture you may have in your mind.
Gays rights the right of sexuality
Oh I love and respect homosexuals so much the mere thought of a so called cure terrifies me I can't think of a world without gays or lesbians I would kill myself if they one day vanished because if you take away them your just taking beauty away from the world there is certain beauty that can only be made by lesbians other form of beauty can only be made by gays and same goes for heterosexuals but to take away all forms of beauty except for heterosexuality is evil and even if it was a choice why persicute someone sexual preference lesbian and lesbian relationships are one of a kind I love seeing such beauty and I'd rather die then let that beauty dissapear!!
To be honest, I am almost 40
To be honest, I am almost 40 and NEVER EVER have I witnessed anything but respect and some fear of homosexuals, because, you know, if you say ANYTHING that sounds even close to being "negative" it is you who´s going to get it, and not the homosexuals precisely. And I live in the first world (I have lived in three first world countries to date) and well, the problem does not come when you are homosexual but when you have any oppinion yourself that is not outright praising and positive about them.
I find it weird when I hear continuous complaints and fears from homosexuals in the first world (I am not saying anything about other cultures where conditions are very different) when they have the upper hand!!!
LGBT, please don´t fight violence with greater violence. You´re doing your cause no favour. I am free to think whatever I want about homosexuality, and may have good reason backing it too, but I am not going to treat anyone disrespectfully or discriminate anyone just for being homosexual. So please don´t you do it to me!
homosexuality
chromosome i.e. gene determine everything, everything happen in this world for a reason, if a person is gay / lesbian / straight / bisexual or anything else are determined by gene, if gene determine heterosexuality and if this is normal then i have to say the same in case of homosexuality, diseases are also caused by gene problem and human suffering and get pain and die, if any one think that being a gay is a chromosomal disease then i will say that no body is suffering from physically rather than mentally and which is caused by the socity , if the socity is maintain the quote "live and let live" this type of discussion will never be come and we who r gay r not to be judged by any homophobic socity or religion ..... thanking you..... ratnadeep ghosh, age 29, India.
Its Obvious
I not homosexual but I have seen these people since my childhood. I know they are different. I feel they are genetically mutated somehow because I observed many male homosexual dressed like ladies and walk like ladies... That is not their choice. They are bound to behave like that.....
I think we all should realize that this is not the matter of choice and have never been so. Religion have always been in opposition to these relations but now as all we know that many other animal species also show this tendencies. Those animal behavior prove that this occurs all around the kingdom of nature and is not un-natural.
Religions from Schizophrenic Family() will never understand this simple sign. Its natural, It existed since primitive times and will continue to exist in our future.
Is Homosexuality a choice?
I believe that homosexuality is a very complex topic. I think everyone naturally has thier own view points,various opinions and beliefs. I am a homosexual and believe we are born different.I think one of the best arguements to prove this fact is if it were a choice why would someone choose to be teased,bullied,ridiculed and put through hell just to be honest with the world and themselves about who they are.Some men are just simply attracted to men. I don't know why the world has to complicate something that isn't complicated. Heterosexuals long to be with the opposite sex. Homosexuals are simply the opposite! Case closed.
I agree with you to some
I agree with you to some extent. But I see sexuality as a meter, starting from transgender, to homosexual, to bisexual, to heterosexual. For example, if transgender was 1 and heterosexual was 10 I would probably be an 8, since I've had one relationship with someone of the same sex and the rest with men, plus I'm mainly attracted to men. So, like everything, I believe sexuality is a spectrum, not black and white.
Kinsey scale
Laura, you're actually a 1 or a 2 - according to the Kinsey scale. I am quite impressed with your take on the matter, as your conclusion is consistent with Alfred Kinsey's, probably the most respected scientist in the area, so called "Kinsley scale": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale
AGAIN
i have been researching about the reasons behind homosexulaity. it has become a clishe these days. everyone asks why this and why that. when the true question lies in the following" why do we as humans constantly are eager to know about stuff that comingto think about will not change a thing!"
now come and tell me, do u care if X is gay? yes u do! y? it is because u like thes stuff that are not very familiar. we tend to see the wrongs in people when we ourselves are masked with mistakes and wrongs!
i am a homosexual person, and i have been so ever since i remember, i was 4 or 5 and i still remember the 1st time my mom found out me looking at a guy's penis, when he was 6 himself. now tell mehow could that be a choice!!!!
i used to play with barbies! and i hated still do hate guns, i mean toy guns. people used to gaze and say" in arabic= ya 7aram shoofo hayda! ala y3een imo" so what? what will science do 4 me? proove to me y am i a homosexual? well thanks
but before i end up my comment hear this very well and in bold also!!
FEW YEARS AGO, IN AUSTRALIA, THEY HAVE FOUND THE BIRD'S INHABITANT CHANGING AROUND A LOCAL INDUSTRY, AND THEY FOUND THAT THE BIRDS HAVE BEEN ACTING ODDLY!! THEY HAVE OBSERVED, FEMALE-FEMALE BIRDS LYINGIN THE SAME NEST AND YES MALE- MALE BIRDS AS WELL! THIS ODD BEHAIVOR MADE THEM QUESTION Y ARE THE INHABITANTS GOING THROUGH THIS AND THE FACT WAS ASTONISHING!!!
when you are in the mother's womb, every actiona dn situation and any food consumption or atmosphere the mom is in you are affected by! so eating non-healthy food will affect the growth of the fetus and yes in teh case of the birds the egg was shallo and the birds were found out as" GAY!" so based upon that my question rises so what? my mm is the reason behind my sexuality? well i do not know. i have been living in lebanon 4 the past 21 yrs and i am still single and i think i am single because my mom is teh reason behind my gayness and i will change? i used to think abt that but after this article i said who cares!!!! not science not anyone will give me my answer! everything is due to what u choose, to what has happened to millions of things so let us not bother purselves and just live!!
The Science of Homosexuality
I am a Heterosexual male. I have looked at Penises when I was growing up as well. Does that make me a homeosexual? No it does not. I played with both barbies and everything else in between. By playing with them make me a Homepsexual? No it does not. I was sexually abused at the age of 2 and nobody did anythig to stop it. So am I a homessexual? No. Do I still look at a male Penis? Yes I do. Do I long for one? I will admit sometimes, but I am more atractive to the female form. So I am not a homeosexual, Bisexual yes. I also believe that eveybody is to a certian extent bisexual.
I believe that we have a choice to make and that we make the choice at or arround the age of 2. Sometimes we supress that choice but still a choice nontheless. Both men and women go through a time of change and experement on both sexes. To find out who we are. Science has also confirmed that there is no homeosexual gene. So you are not born gay. You see the world and do not like being the sex that you are. Therefore I will agree with you that one choosed the lifestyle and not genes.
Will stop their.
agreed
All sexual orientations are utterly natural, and none of them is a choice... if it was wouldn't people have been able to erase it? But what happened? exactly the opposite, more and more all sexualities are being accepted and treated quite normally, yes there are some communities/societies who are a bit behind due to close-minded religious beliefs that are/should be invalid, because they don't make any effing sense.
You should not blame anyone for your sexuality, because it was no one's decision to make you gay, you just are and that should be perfectly fine.
People are so interested in this topic either wanting to seek truth, or just spread lies, as we humans are a very curious and complex species, we're always driving to either empower others or simply ourselves regardless of any intention that we hold.
Anyhow, it have been proven there are several scientific evidence, the biological differences: gay men and straight women on average have equally proportioned brain hemispheres and the same similarity goes with lesbian women and straight men.
Click this link: to see evidence from the Netherlands Institute of Neuroscience about Sexual orientation and its basis in brain structure and function:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/30/10273.full (remove spaces)
RE: The Science Of Homosexuality - No News Here
Greetings Friends and Fellow Humans;
I must say that I appreciate the painstaking detail you have put into your short dissertation. I am also quite interested to note that at the end of it, your response is the same non-scientific response that supporters of 'gay science' use to push the argument that homosexuality is anything more than behavioral choice.
After more than 60 years of focused study, all really to promote an argument in favor of non-heterosexual behavior as normative in humans, the most scientific statement we can make is 'Why would someone choose to be gay?'. That is unfortunate.
Scientifically speaking, Sherlock Holmes (a fictional scientist), said quite often that after examining all possibilities as to a cause or solution to a puzzle, and finding no reasonable or logical answer, whatever remained, no matter how uncomfortable, illogical, or unreasonable it appear to be, must be the answer.
We keep trying to look to logic and science to justify what is clearly emotional behavior. We've mapped the gene pool, we've studied hormone secretions and malfunctions of all kinds, brainwaves, brain size, brain structure, biological, bio-physical, bio-chemical, and psychiatric stratifications of various kinds. After all that, the best scientific answer we can muster is 'Why would someone choose to be gay?'.
The answer, as uncomfortable as it may seem dear friends, is CHOICE itself. Why do I choose to be a vegetarian when steak and eggs abound? Why do I choose to be Buddhist rather than Muslim? Why do I choose milk over alcohol or drink only water? Even when threatened with torture and death, why do I choose to be a Christian? Some people (even parents) wonder why anyone in their right mind would choose to be a parent?
Seriously now, we can find and illuminate some human proclivities and potential behavioral processes in Science. But there is no gene that makes us alcoholics or kleptomaniacs or Democrats or professional athletes. These are all matters of CHOICE when we are done. No getting it away from it, fellow 'Matrix' fans.
In the absence of tangible evidence, after more than 3000 years of debate, science, philosophy, and religious review, the answer, as uncomfortable and as illogical as it may 'feel', is CHOICE.
I really really really really really really hope that any responses to this are going to be expositions of evidence (All I've heard is theories up to now). I look forward to reading, seeing, and or testing it.
Thanks for listening...and Peace.
First off, this has not been
First off, this has not been a debate for 3,000 years, let alone a scientific one. We didn't really care about the topic until the 1950s. Prior to that, homosexuality wasn't even a word until 1860s, and that was from the British during times of colonization. Do some research on IPC Section 377. Prior to that, the term was buggery, which was anal intercourse regardless of gender. Henry VIII made a law in the 1500s which turned buggery into a felony. Prior to that, it was considered heresy. And then, most discussion seem to have been about passive male sex, not dominant male sex, not female-female sex. So, it's never really been a debate until lately.
You compare internal assignments to being a democrat and want to be taken seriously? You compare it to addictive behavior which involved chronic consumption of alcohol? You compare it to socio-econimc decisions to be a vegetarian? You compare it to the choice of being a Christian? Interesting.
Then you say that science has made no progress except to say that "Why would someone choose to be gay?" Really? First off, this article provided some scientific data regarding the hypothalamus, which does show up in other studies. Second off, we don't have a cure for cancer and have been researching it for WAY longer. So, I guess by your logic, there is no cure, we should stop looking and let people die.
I tried to be straight. I made that choice. And the two women I was with over the course of several years unfortunately became men when we had sex. That was the only way I could enjoy the moment. If I could choose to be straight, believe you me, I would. Straight people are appreciated by mainstream society. They get children and no stares. They get tax breaks when they get married and have children. They don't ever have to address their sins the way homosexuals have to account for their supposedly sinful lives. No one is on a pedestal against divorce or lust, for example. I wouldn't have to worry about being alienated by my family for my so-called choice. Life would be SO much easier if I were a straight male.
Life might be slightly tastier if you weren't a vegetarian (though I love vegetarian food, and I don't know that my statement is actually true). Sure, it might be harder to be a vegetarian, but with almost all behavior, if you stick to it long enough, it becomes a habit. Such as seen in your case about alcoholism. So, I tried. For seven years, I tried to be straight. For 15 years I begged God to take homosexuality away from me. I contemplated suicide. I was chased around the school by homophobic bullies. I never had real relationships with most people because I was afraid they'd find out I was gay and abandon me. I have ulcers, alcoholism, depression, anxiety, loneliness, self-loathing, and death ambitions because I am gay and hate myself and hate living in this society that hates me all the same.
I just want to die. But then I am terrified of that because I am afraid I am going to hell.
Please, for the love of people, think a little more about what you are saying. This isn't heroin addiction. I didn't ask for this. I would gladly give it up if it would make all that above stuff go away. I would love nothing more than to be a normal human living in the normal human world. But the truth is, there is no such thing as normal. I beg you and people like you (though you have been perhaps the kindest in expressing your views) to listen to people like me and take what we say into account before you finalize your opinion about us and who we are. It's not as cut-and-dry as you seem to believe.
LIfe is cut-and-dry. Human Beings Are Not
Greetings and Peace again, Jyoeru
As to the other items you shared:
1. Homosexual and other non-marital sexual behaviors have been subjects of moral debate and discussion for at least the 4,000 years since The Old Testament was written. We know of a host of nations, civilizations, and cultures worldwide, from earliest writings to the present day, who debated the morality of various sexual behaviors. That is just fact, my friend. Since they didn't all speak 1950's English, it is unlikely that they used the word 'homosexuality'. But their descriptions of that behavior, along with many others, including drunkenness, gluttony, selfishness, hypocrisy, and such was clear enough for us to understand in modern terms.
2. Cancer is a biological occurrence that has been confirmed scientifically to the genetic level. A cure may well be possible, because we can clearly define how cancer develops and behaves biologically, genetically, and medically in many creatures including humans. I did not argue that there was no cure for homosexuality. I made clear that there is no scientifically recognized or discovered basis for non-heterosexual sexual behavior which allows for their determination as a natural, traceable, genetic or biologically occurrence. That includes homosexuality. My conclusive argument is that there is a cure for these behaviors under their Biblical classification as SIN.
3. I don't know what the term 'internal assignment' means in any practical sense. It sounds like a term akin to 'self-assessment' or 'self-appointment'. If that is the case, the term has no practical value in the real world. Unless it is possible for me to internally assign myself the position of Chair of the Federal Reserve. All of the evidence we have to date is that all sexual behaviors are a matter of individual choice. If that's what 'internal assignment' means, then it is the same as deciding to BE a democrat or republican or teacher or firefighter or airline pilot or drug dealer - and pursue all that comes with that choice.
4. Having dealt with my own struggles with sin issues and given counsel - spiritual and clinical - in many areas of dysfunctional behavior, I can tell you that many many people live their whole lives, far longer than 7 years, without resolving some issues. They struggle with that thing with therapy, and prayer, and support, and understanding, and they keep living. Last I checked, that's what I'm doing. Um just sayin...
Hang in there, Jyoeru! God knows your fight. Put God in front of it by putting God in charge of your life. As He said to Moses in the Mountains of Sinai -... "The Lord, The Lord! Abounding in Love, Grace and Mercy.." And if we don't meet in this life, I will see you on the other side, as God promises.
Living In The Love Of The Savior.
Joseph
GOD Loves You. Choose To Trust Him.
Greetings and Peace Jyoeru, my dear friend.
Thanks so much for reading the article, and thanks even more for responding. So let me just get to the point: Jyoeru, God loves you. He really does. God saw you coming to this life long before He made this universe. And most importantly, God planned for you! God planned for your life. I like to think that God even planned for us to share on this subject. God made you to be special Jyoeru. You are valuable to God. But God also made you to be someone great and valuable FOR Him, just as He made me. I assure you, God heard every one of your prayers, your cries, and He knows every bit of your struggle. That is true for all of us, Jyoeru. God Hears. That is what 'Samuel' means, by the way.
We live in a corrupt, unstable, and dying universe. That our science has come far enough to show us that fact is a good thing. But The Bible told us that fact in both The Gospels and in the words of the Prophets and the Apostles long before our string, shell, relativity, special relativity, and unified field theories were ever conceived. You and I are not a accidents or anomalies of human existence or evolution. We are simply human dealing with the fallen state of our existence, as is everyone else in all of human history since Adam and Eve.
There is no argument that homosexuality is sin, as are all other forms of sexual behavior outside of marriage - according to The Bible, Old and New Testament. But if sex issues were the only behaviors to be classified as sin, then the people who have historically abused and harmed you (and many others) in your childhood or adulthood might have a leg to stand on. As it is, they too are dying in sin because of their behaviors that harmed and mishandled you, and because of other behaviors that you will hopefully never discover. As it says in both old and New Testament - "All of us are sinners and are far short of being acceptable to God." That's the bad news. BUT GOD KNEW THAT ALL THE WAY BACK IN GENESIS. It is why, when Adam and Eve disobeyed and condemned themselves and all of their descendants to limited existence in a dying universe, God in conversing with them did not express surprise or shock. He simply told them what the results of their behavior would be. AND THEN - God gave them the plan for their restoration, and the rest of humanity who followed. God told them that a savior was coming who would restore humanity's relationship with God for all time, and THAT SAVIOR would offer every single human being salvation, grace, mercy, and peace with God - NO MATTER WHAT THEIR SINS - PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE. It is why the angels encouraged the shepherds to celebrate at the birth of Jesus The Christ. It is why an entire entourage of 'scientists' and philosophers came from foreign lands looking for that savior - having seen the signs of his birth.
Here is the GREAT NEWS that The Bible tells everyone. It is not our job to try to break the hold that sin has over our lives! That is God's job. That is the promise that God makes. He will break the power of SIN, and restore us from the guilt and punishment of SIN. We only need to do something simple in return, and it's very simple. WE need only openly recognize and confess our fallen state to God, and receive Jesus as Lord, Savior, and Ruler over our lives. You may have some idea of this action because you mentioned that you prayed to God over your homosexuality many times. I understand your fight. So do the apostles and the prophets. They also talked to God about their failings and issues and sin problems. God's response? Trust Me And Live! Jesus says that in receiving Him as Lord, we also receive The Holy Spirit to dwell within us. "He will comfort you and guide you into all truth". As Paul says in one of his letters, "I begged God to remove this thorn (sin issue) I am struggling with even now. God's response was simple - "My grace is sufficient"." God didn't remove Paul's sin issue. God simply told Paul to trust Him and do his best to live a life that honors God, even while struggling with the thorny issues of his sins. Paul didn't then assume that he was free to continue sinning, or that his sin was 'okay' with God, or that some genetic answer would be found to medically explain his 'thorn' or provide a cure for it. He continued his struggle with that sin - and others that he had in his life, while trusting God for his salvation and growth. What growth was that? Seeking God's will, studying God's word, and trying to do God's will day-to-day. No big plan for perfection. No big prescription for total wholeness. No roadmap to complete freedom from sin in Paul's life. Just two things. Trust God - And Live.
Jyoeru, I am struggling with sin in my life. Some sin issues are so very embarrassing that I hope nobody will ever know them. But if someone should discover them, then they will know that I am human just like them. The good news and bad news is that everyone I know is struggling with sin issues, and everyone I've ever heard of struggled with sin issues - except JESUS The Christ. We have only one cure for this universal genetic disorder - Accepting Him as Lord, Savior, and Master over our lives. We then follow the example Paul and the apostles give us, after the example and life of Jesus The Christ. We do our best to stand for what God says is right, and stand against what God says is wrong - "as much as lies within us" says The Bible. You are not alone in your fight, anymore than someone struggling with a 30 year drug addiction, or living with alcoholism, or violent/abusive behavior, or gambling, or promiscuity, or pornography, or smoking, lying, or greed, or gluttony, or hoarding, or self-righteousness, or gossiping. or whatever else we claim is good and right that God says is destructive and deadly.
"I have a friend who just figures out ways to belittle and insult people in stroking his own ego. He used to say, "I know I'm an a--hole, but God made me this way." He doesn't say that anymore since having truly become a Christian. He is still struggling with that behavior, but he is getting better at managing it. The Bible tells us that God honors every feeble attempt we make at standing for His righteousness, whether within ourselves or with others. Trust God and Live, that is my first and best response to you. If I can help at all, please contact me anytime. It will be my privilege to share.
My next post will address your formal response to the article itself, so stay tuned...
Living In The Love Of Christ - This Christmas Season...
Joseph
The Science of Homosexuality
Thank you for the masterpiece. I have always thought so. People try to justify behavior using science yet there is no scientific evidence. I always wondered why if a man is attracted to a man, what would make the other man attracted to him.
If you want to know why gays are gay...ask them
I am gay, and I know that it's no choice. I tried to fight it for most of my life and finally accepted it, and that was the only choice i made in my sexuality. Choosing to accept it instead of hide it and bury it down. A heterosexual would not understand unless they went through the same thing, but when you are gay, you can't change it. No matter how hard you try. I know this because I tried for 12 years.
Now I'm no scientist, but I'm
Now I'm no scientist, but I'm no ignoramous either (though sometimes I forget how to spell certain words plus I am writing this at 12 pm at night) and I definitely agree with you about freedom of choice. For instance, I choose to be a feminist, a vegetarian and dress in a gothic style. I am harrassed constantly for making those choices but I feel comfortable behaving in the way in which I do and it simply feels right. Therefore, I'm not going to change because how I live my life isn't hurting anyone and I enjoy living this way. "Converting" a homosexual to heterosexuality is like forcing a left-handed person to be right-handed. Sure, they could choose to be right-handed, but why on earth would they do that when using their left-hand feels right? (Unintentional pun)
Evidence
As far as evidence goes, I am waiting for more answers just as you are. What I can tell you and most other gay people would probably tell you is, I do not get sexually aroused by someone of the opposite gender. This IS something that has been studied and is plain evidence. As to the why, that is up for debate. However, your stance and societies stance that we must have an answer as to the "why" this occurs, is simple justification for your biased stance.
The writer asks a valid question to support his theories, "why would you CHOOSE to be gay" especially if you could be executed for doing so. There have been studies performed that demonstrates physiological reactions to images of the opposite or same-sex genders. Clearly, gay people are aroused by same-sex attraction.
Is the why really important? Or are you simply in search of evidence that supports your obvious prejudice. So Serenkip Visotor, do you choose who gives your a hard-on?
Evidence
I am straight, but have defended gays from intolerance in debates. Google the subject, "Is homosexuality inherited or learned?" and you will find a number of studies on the subject. The majority say that homosexuality is inherited -- you are born that way and cannot help but be what you are. I saw only one site that claimed homosexuality was "learned," and that was a Christian site. They are compelled by their religious doctrine to be non-objective.
I do agree, those who want so fervently to believe that homosexuality is learned or willful do so to justify their prejudice and their hostility toward gays.
Hmm...
So, operating on Mr Holmes' (and vicariously, your own) assumption, God doesn't exist? Because that seems illogical. It also seems uncomfortable to admit such a thing. I mean, I am not a follower of any indoctrinated religion, but I am a believer in a higher being or beings. But my belief must be incorrect because it is illogical and uncomfortable to admit?
Please explain?
Reply to Joseph
1) The question "why would someone choose to be gay?" is not scientific. It is philosophic. If one is to argue on the basis of religion, or argue with data that is neither scientifically proven nor disproven (i.e. homosexuality is a CHOICE), then one is arguing philosophically. Thus, it would be remiss to contend that the aforementioned question has no place in a debate of this calibre, as it is hypocritical to say the least.
2) Sherlock Holmes is, as you said, a FICTIONAL scientist. How can that be considered "scientifically speaking"? Of course, I am not saying that the beliefs presented in such literature via the characters are without merit. But are you positive you've applied such a belief correctly in the circumstances? Who's to say that all scientific methods to this "puzzle" have been exhausted? And who's to say that what science HAS found about the disparity between hetero and non-hetero individuals isn't significant? Though these discoveries may not be the solution, they can be considered a step towards the solution can they not?
3) Avoid absolutes. "Clearly emotional behaviour"? That's synonymous with myself declaring that homosexuality is "clearly" genetically determined. This aside, the following comments you made are a clear illustration of hyperbole. The methods you have listed have indeed had their merits in scientifically explaining homosexuality. Some have even been expressed in the main article on this blog. Yet this is all ignored in favour of exaggerating the supposed little progress science has had in providing answers for homosexuality. Exaggeration has no place in a reasoned debate, thus your argument in this respect lacks credibility.
4) You draw faulty parallels between choice. Irrespectively, you contend that people choose to be alcoholics, which is incorrect. Rather, it is an interplay between natural (genetics) and environmental influences. Geneticists have recently isolated a gene that deals with alcoholism. This gene determines who is more susceptible to an addiction to alcohol, and who isn't. It lends credibility to the argument that behaviour is influenced by genetics, thus restricting the argument of choice. As for kleptomania - that is a mental disorder. Those who are kelptomaniacs are just as able choose to be kleptomaniacs as those who are suffering from depression are able to choose their depression.
4) In the absence of tangible evidence for or against the notion of choice in homosexuality, the answer is uncertainty. You ask scientists to prove homosexuality has a scientific basis, I ask you to prove that it doesn't. The fact of the matter is that there are scientific suggestions for the occurrence of homosexuality. Each of these has interesting findings, and all of these findings indicate a scientific answer to the question of homosexuality. They do not provide the answer, merely lay a path for scientists to follow. I suggest you read the article to find these indicators. And whilst they are merely indicators, they are significant and cannot be ignored. The argument from a 'choice' stance, then, is impractical as it ignores them completely.
5) I apologise that this is not an exposition of evidence, merely a rebuttal of your lack thereof. But once again, the best evidence you will find is that which indicates a scientific basis for homosexualty. There is scarcely any that is choice.
Joseph
I think you may be confused on the matter a bit. Let me help you. First of all we haven't learned everything in this world there is to learn. Just because we haven't discovered why people can be homosexual doesn't mean it can't be discovered.
Second is that emotions are apart of science and that is undebatable. Emotions are controlled in our brains and our biological functions. Look in a psychology text book and you will learn all thats needed.
And third is the "Why would someone choose to be homosexual?" question. Obviously this wasn't a scientific statement. Just added on for thought. And your comparisons aren't very good either. Why would i choose to be vegetarian? I have sympathy for animal suffering and it is healthier. It has nothing to do with the amount of steak and eggs around me because they don't affect my choice. All those comparisons you posted were a bit meaningless and they had nothing to do with the choice expressed by that certain question. Why would I choose to be gay if I new I might get seriously hurt being so or if I new I might get attacked emotionally? I won't get hurt in this world for being vegan, religious, a parent, or a milk drinker.
Do you think a black man one hundred years ago, if given the ability, would choose to be white? I think so and it is because of the suffering brought on by people who believed they were not important enough to have equal rights.
All the things we are come from our biological structure. All things can be explained by science, just not immediately. So try and open your mind and learn something my friend. I hope you respond and give me some feedback as well.
Genetically Predisposed
This is my theory. I believe that people have a genetic disposition (along with environmental factors such as how they were brought up etc) to act certain ways. For example, a person may have a genetic disposition to being an addict (alcohol or otherwise), and some have a genetic disposition to being a serial killer. Does this mean that A) It is okay for them to be an alcoholic or drug addict or serial killer, regardless of not having as "easy" of a choice not to do so? No. Why? Because at some point it will become harmful to other people along with themselves, and because society says it's not good, and often times will go out of their way to help these people with things like AA etc. And B) People can prevent themselves from being any of those things, by getting treatment, and refraining from their desires to do these bad things. Now, why society just decided that being homosexual is okay, despite being medical problems (AIDS), the fact that the majority of society deep down has some problem with it, because they know it's not right, I'm not sure why.
In closing, if people want to be homosexual, regardless of cause, I could care less. But it should not be an encouraged behavior in schools, teachers should not be teaching about homosexuality to 1st graders (or sexuality at all) just to please their own liberal agenda. My son is 5 months old, and my mother in law CONSTANTLY refers to gay behavior if he does anything, like has a doll, or is wearing a tight white onesie or whatever. He's a baby, leave him alone. And he is my baby, and will grow up with my values, and he will be a good person like his father.
I could go on and on, but I don't have time.
oh I can comment, nice, where
oh I can comment,
nice, where are the proves?
And I'm a girl, and not very long I accepted that I love girls more than boys.
Let we tell ya, as a child I've found out, you know I didn't like that thing from the boys, it was disguisting for me (still I do I don't know why) but I didn't tell anyone, no one knew, and no one was be able to see that I was different.
yeah somewhere I knew I was different, when I fell in love for the first time with a girl it felt more different than when I walked behind the boys (but I was to scary so I pushed away, but believe me that made it worser I hoped I marry a Boy, making children that kind of stuf), you know and there was never a relationship, I had always trouble with boys, there was always something that broke up the love, and later I realized it was not really love, I don't know what it was. I always liked girls more, When I was a child I wished I was a boy because they have it so easy, I thought(because look more beautiful than boys how ever there are boys I like, but most of them have something female ) . O.o I don't know why.
But if the science just have theoriës but no proves, I don't know what to think about it. ( I never could imagine a Sexlife with a boy still I don't, I'm 18 years old maybe about 5 years it changes I don't know)
Some people say, it's something that you choose, If I could choose I would love a man, but love is something you can't choose. Whatever. some say it's in the genes, you got born with it, or like there is, you say it's something in the brain or hormones, perhaps it is, in the brains I can believe that, if you left brain stopped working you're right side of your body doesn't move. So it's a prove you need your brains to live normal. But I think Homosexuality and heterosexuality are the same the only differents is you can't make children by your own when you love your own kind.
Of course not, but if everyone could make children I think we had a big problem.
But well, It's important that humans see that people with homosexuality are human being too, and not a kind of monsters or something.
I don't know very much about
I don't know very much about it, but I think it's a mixture of both environment (how you were raised), and genetics. Like, I'm a heterosexual guy. However, I bet if my genes were just slightly different, or if I were raised around peers that weren't prejudice (I strongly regret ever using the term "gay" in a negative manner), I'd be bisexual. Now, I've never dated a guy before, so I could be bisexual. Just 'cause I'm bisexual, doesn't mean that I'd equally like guys and girls. I could be bisexual now, and just not realize it, and it wouldn't come to a surprise to me. It can be seen like a scale between heterosexuality on the right, and homosexuality on the left, with bisexuality in the middle. I'd probably be in between bisexuality and heterosexuality. If I moved the weight just a bit to the left, I'd be bisexual. In other words, I do find certain guys to be slightly attractive, but I prefer girls quite a bit more than guys. If I were raised differently, or my genes were slightly different, then there's a good chance that I'd be more in the middle.
Just an analogy of the way I see it. I could be completely wrong, but it's a convenient way of thinking about it. This is just a partially informed opinion; I don't have a whole lot to back it up with. It may not help with confidence issues, but it'd at least help with answers maybe. However, let's use this example that I saw on a TV show (it's actually really interesting):
Say, I put a candy in one hand, and made a fist with both my hands; a classic chance game where you try to pick the correct hand with the prize. You pick one of the hands, I open it, and there's a candy in it. Now, you'd probably get a feeling of victory, since you picked the correct hand. However, you don't know what's inside the other hand. I open it up, and it turns out that there's actually two candies in the other hand. You may have gotten the least beneficial prize, but you can't really control what prize you'll get in a game of chance.
Basically, you should accept what circumstances you have right now, and don't fantasize about more "fortunate" life styles. Just enjoy what you have available to you, and don't worry about life styles that you are unable to reach, as it's just a waste of time (like with your situation). And if it's something you can reach, then you could try achieving that goal, rather than fantasizing about it, as you'll just waste more time.
I hope that raises your confidence, it was a really interesting life lesson when I saw it, and can be applied to more than just your situation about self-confidence.
Huh?
So do you think if I was raised my two gay men I would more than likely be gay myself? Well I was and I am not. Try doing some research and you will find that your environment has nothing to do with it.
Not Hate.... Just Love
I believe they are driven by the physiological needs of their bodies... They are bound to do that what they do... They are special people like many other special people with specific disorders.
Lets face it and accept it as reality of our life. Lets Start spreading Love not Hate....
Reply to Chris.
Chris:
I must fist establish that I will not rebut anything that quotes religious doctrine. It seems somewhat crass to refute anything claiming religion declares homosexuality wrong, when one does not need to be religious to enjoy the benefits of equality before the law in today's society. This begs the question then: Why does one need to abide by religious doctrine to enjoy freedom and equality if they are entitled to not be religious?
1. You compare homosexuality to murder, arguing that people choose to murder, thus people choose to be homosexual. This contention is fundamentally flawed. People, by a natural survival instinct, choose things which minimise the risk of harm to themselves (this is, of course, exempting those with mental disorders.) It's something called self-presevation. Whilst I do not totally agree with the maxim "Why would someone choose to be gay in today's society?", I will not totally repudiate it. The fact is, if homosexuality truly were a choice, then it would be a non-issue. It wouldn't exist. People would be disinclined to choose homosexuality because it poses a threat to their health, their safety, and their well-being.
2. With respect to your argument about pedophilia, you are failing to understand current law. Under the current laws in society today, homosexuality isn't illegal. Pedophilia is. Why is this? It is conceived (and rightly so) that those who are over the age of 18 are able to consent to any number of things (notwithstanding the numerous legal rights and obligations attached to this; and sub-laws that apply to older and younger ages.) In the current discussion, sex is the aspect that arises. So, if homosexuality occurs above the age of consent, then what has one done that is illegal? Nothing. However, with pedophilia, the crime is having sex with someone not fully able to grant consent to such acts; or if they do give consent, not to understand the gravity of their decision. To extend this further, rape will be discussed. This is having sex with another without their consent. Homosexuals above the age required for effectual consent can, naturally, agree to have sex. So, it cannot fall within the category of rape either.
3. You argue on the basis of 'right and wrong.' I agree that what you say does have some gravitas to it insofar as rationality is unique to humans. However, I would also add that with humans' ablity of rationality comes ways in which this rationality is determined. What is perceived to be 'right' therefore, differs among cultures and individuals. In some nations, it is conceived that women are subordinate to man (stemmed from the concept of original sin.) In other cultures, it is conceived that women are equal to man. This example clearly illustrates the volatility of the notions 'right' and 'wrong.' In the current situation, homosexuality, according to you, is 'wrong.' This is because of religious influence. Irregardless of whether or not you are religious, being socialised within a religious nation has lasting effects. You believe homosexuality is 'wrong' because this is what religious doctrine dictates.
Finally, I must add this: If you were intending merely to play devil's advocate - as the contradictoriness of your arguments suggests - then I apologise for anything which places you in a negative light.
Regards,
Steven
To SerenDip's reply to Chris:
To SerenDip's reply to Chris: It is NOT true to say if homosexuality was a choice then NO ONE would be gay. This is OUTRAGEOUS. People do totally IRRATIONAL things for love ALL THE TIME. Think about people who die in the name of their so-called God. This is an OBVIOUS threat to "health, safety, and well-being" and from the outside Perspective it’s completely illogical, However, people die in the name of God. People have lost there lives for loving those of the opposite race (mainly speaking of black and white relationships) society tore them apart yet love kept them together. I refute this claim that people would simply "choose" to not be gay by threat of well-being and you cannot discard the theory that homosexuality is a choice. People will "choose" to go against all odds to be with there gay-lover.
And for your second point, Chris was most-likely referring homosexuality to rape/pedophilia because your endocrine and nervous system are regulatory body functions that control things like sexual desire IN GENERAL (including all forms of sex).. maybe suggesting an impaired regulation of hormones that can show a connection between the different forms of sex. I am familiar with this research and this theory suggest that homosexuality is simply a heightened sense of sexual brain activity that skews logical thinking and causes ppl to act on impulse rather than reasoning. This can determine a relationship between behavior characteristics such as homosexuality, pedophilia, and rape if this turns out to be true.
You are correct that “right and wrong” is left up to interpretation but honestly if there is no religion there is no argument about homosexuality. As the famous scholar Freud wrote in his book “Future of Illusion” without religion there are no morals simply because you cannot depend on society to act on rational thinking. This is a man who in fact argued that religion was an illusion however he acknowledged the cause of removing it from the picture. We cannot say relgion has nothing to do with the situation of homosexuality because that is where this argument stems from. Therefore religion in fact defines a “right and wrong” so that it is NOT simply left up to interpretation and it is NOT left up to the hands of imperfect beings to make the wisest decisions.
If one is an unbeliever of religion and its doctrines then I feel no argument can be made of his/her “wrongdoing” so-to-speak but ppl with religious views still have a right to express them against homosexuality. I hope none of this comment is offensive to you or anyone else and will gladly acknowledge rebuttal response
Sir
Religious folks don't view religion as you or I do. They think they are choosing to be loved and to have happiness and crap. Homosexuals know that being gay is not exactly looked kindly at.
Ummm...?
I don't know exactly what you are trying to get at. Are you fine with, or against homosexuality?