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Bio 103, Week 12

Paul Grobstein's picture

Welcome to the on-line forum for Biology 103.  This is a place for thoughts in progress, a place to leave thoughts and questions that others may find useful and find ones that you might find useful, a place for conversation.  Join in, and let's see what we can make of life together.  If you're registered for the course, be sure to sign in before posting.  Others are welcome to join in as well but posting of comments will be delayed to check for spam. 
You're free to write about whatever has struck you.  If you need something to get you started though, look back over last week's forum and the following two articles

In what have your understandings of cancer, death, emotion, medicine, science been altered by the current controversy/our discussions?  What should scientists do in the future in relation to cancer, death, emotion, medicine, science itself?

Karina G's picture

Week 12

 I really enjoyed when we discussed the two articles on cancer. At one point the room seemed to be divided between those who have history of cancer in their families and those who don't. This reflects how emotions and fear play an important role when we are trying to make decisions such as how many times you should get tested. It is human to want to save lives but, personally I think that we need to learn to be objectives. Yes emotions should come into play when we are taking decisions but they shouldn't weight as much.

Since we need to be objective, we also have to be sure of the veracity of the information provided to us. We need to be smart about our decisions and if death is our final destiny, we are going to die anyway. Some earlier than others but we all face the same end. We cannot save everyone even if that includes me!

 

achiles's picture

 we can try

 we can try

achiles's picture

using science as a weapon

 I wanted to touch on the scientific bias of these two NY Times articles. I was really underwhelmed by the argument against annual breast cancer testing- largely because the research behind this recommendation just isn't good enough. I can't for the life of me understand why we would make such a serious and life-impacting decision based on a 7 year study of 54,000 women in the UK. Further limiting was the shallow interpretation of data. I won't babble on this particular point- others have discussed this in their posts.

But I do want to call attention to the brief shout out to similar guidelines for gynecological exams. It was only in recent years that doctors discovered the link between HPV and cervical cancer. An estimated 50% of the sexually active population has been exposed to HPV, and many (half, one might say) of them are at high risk for cervical cancer. Now, more than ever, young women should be screened. 18 year olds ARE being diagnosed with cervical cancer. Cervical cancer can be deadly. Why are we even discussing foregoing minimally invasive, largely painless, and risk-free (in terms of personal health) procedures that could, and have, saved lives?! The argument against testing is nothing more than an attempt at frugality on the behalf of health care providers. 

But not very many people pay close attention to science news and these articles will be widely disseminated and read by many. And, as we've discussed, many people take published scientific research as the gospel Truth. Even in class last week, someone said something to the effect of "well I guess it's true if the statistics say so." So, this article will use its questionable statistics, methods, and terminology to convince many that testing is "dangerous," a word strategically used to invoke fear. People will think that testing may cause them bodily harm.

This is just another example of the power of science in the formation of public opinion. And as long as people believe it to be irrefutable, it will continue to be the weapon of choice for politicians, et al. This time, pardon the wordplay, it could be deadly. 

Terrible2s's picture

And then there were 3: the class before thanksgiving

As you may have read, we had 3 people in the class before thanksgiving. Although it may seem lonely we actually ended up having quite a lively conversation. We read an article about dominant sides in snails and snakes. Prof. Grob. has included a link in his posting--I urge you to read it, quite interesting! Basically, a certain species of snails tend to be either "right handed" or "left handed" or right dominant and left dominant. This characteristic determines breeding because mating is facilitated by the dominant side; therefore, righties mate with righties and lefties with lefties. The article went on to describe a certain species of snakes which consume this certain species of snail. They also have a dominant mandible, either right or left, and this mandible only allows them to eat snails who have the same side dominant.

We drew many conclusions from the article. The biggest point we discussed was the possibility of "handedness" in other mammals and humans. By the article's definition, handedness describes asymmetry, and we explored the posibility of asymetry in other creatures. Humans for example were called asymmetrical because our hearts are located on our left side not our right (we also discussed a rare condition in which all human organs are in reverse horizontal order and the effects).

Lastly, we discussed the effectiveness of holding a class in the manner that we did. As Proman and Pgrobs posted, we explored an "interesting thing" and the class ended up being just that. I thoroughly enjoyed the style and hope that maybe either we can use it for the next few classes.

 

drichard's picture

I've been thinking about

I've been thinking about death, wanted to offer an alternative understanding. I'm part of an ongoing discussion on identity and the construction of the life narrative.

We spend a great deal of our lives "finding ourselves," or, in my mind, "creating ourselves." There is an author within each of us responsible for the creation of meaning. As we determine what is meaningful we create an identity for ourselves: we enable phrases like "I like" or "I love." We could look at death as a disruption of our authorship, of our free will. Our fear of death could be an existential, egocentric frustration centering around our authorship. Conversely, our love of life could be viewed as a perverse distortion of our love for ourselves, of our capacity to create ourselves.

In this way, modern medicine becomes an authorial aid, another mirror reflecting narcissus' gaze. Even when we fight to keep other people alive, we do it because our author has deemed them "meaningful" (or else we recognize and respect their narcissism and can put ourselves into their dying shoes - this recognition would revolutionize this proposition. I'm not sure I believe it though).

Why else would we want to prevent a natural, necessary process? We still haven't any answer to this question, except for maybe the idea that what comes after death is "uncertain." Well, why do we fear uncertainty? I believe it is because we love ourselves.

cejensen's picture

Emotion

I think when one looks at something objectively, one is really trying to look at something without letting one's emotion, or the emotions of others, "get in the way." To look at something subjectively is to take your emotion into account. It is easy, therefore, for someone (like me) who hasn't had cancer in their family to say "well, it would be better for everyone if these measures that have been deemed unecesary aren't taken," while it is much more difficult for someone who has been affected in some way by cancer. Which is better? Should we look at things on an individual or collective basis?

dchin's picture

I think we should look at

I think we should look at things on both an individual and collective basis. Excluding one or the other would be unacceptable because then we would not be using all the information at our disposal. Whether or not the information that we end up using leads to the "right" decision, we cannot discount the validity of both the objective and subjective viewpoints. Ultimately, we cannot control the outcomes of situations, but we can choose which tools we use to deal with them.

Paul Grobstein's picture

An experiment in biology (science?) education as conversation

Biology (science?) is normally taught by presenting material organized to survey existing understandings.  Could one instead more effectively teach biology (science?) conversationally,  by simply starting with some "interesting" thing, making connections to that, seeing what new questions emerge from those conversations, following those, and then repeating with a new "interesting thing" when conversation on the previous one peters out?

A case study: In snails and snakes, features to delight Darwin

Observations and discussion by those involved in the experiment below ....

paoli.roman's picture

Response to Conversation in Class 11/25/2009

 The article discussed in class was clearly an 'interesting' subject. By this I mean something new that I probably would not have heard about during my personal time. I did enjoy talking about the article; but when we began talking about 'interesting topics' and how this could be a different way/approach/ focus to begin class, it really made me think of how important the structure of a class is. Beginning class with an 'interesting topic' will intrigue students and catch their attention immediately. I believe that this approach actually works and I would not mind being a part of it in any class. I also think that this approach might work for classes that are small and the overall topic of the class is unappealing. It will allow students to feel comfortable with the class, the professor, and each other. 

lcorhan's picture

science, medicine, and the human race

i do believe healthcare is a birthright. i think as much research should be done as possible to fight diseases which inherently prolongs life. i feel that most people would like to die of 'old age' but what does that really mean? it means you die when you are 'old' but i guarantee there is more wrong with you than being 'old'. most elderly people have heart attacks, or liver/kidney failure, or ALS, or alzheimer's, etc. i do not believe that anyone can just die of 'old age' therefore with disease prevention comes life prolonging.

Terrible2s's picture

Testing the theory of non-testing

Monday's discussion was really interesting to me. Basically, I've been seeing science as (T)ruth for quite some time now. This class has given me an interesting perspective on science and seeing it as a work in progress, but when studying come out, or I'm told facts about our universe, I tend to believe them. Yes, I think that we'll always have more to discover, and that some things that we might value as "true" now will be proven to be false later. However, for right now, in order to keep me sane, I follow what the doctor orders, and believe what is told to me, unless I am given a large amount of proof to doubt it.

Which is why these articles on testing confused me so much. I don't know if I buy it! All these studies and articles and proof telling me something and I haven't decided if I'm going to believe it. Science! Facts! And now I'm doubtful!

We've been told the exact opposite all our lives. We've been told time and time again that we should get tested, and when we're not busy getting tested we should test ourselves. But now we're being told the opposite. Don't get tested, it doesn't help. What?? That doesn't even make sense. What about the 1 in whatever who it didn't save? That woman died because she didn't get tested. That's worth it enough to me. And what about the missing stat which someone in class was talking about. How many women had cancer but were just in treatment. How can we say that they maybe wouldn't have been better off if they had tested earlier. And don't test ourselves! That simply sounds like the health care industry (yes, industry) is trying to save money on over-reacting women or men who feel lumps. Well what if we're right? I think the money is worth it.

Basically I just don't buy it. I want more stats, more facts, more studies. And while I'm waiting I'm getting tested!

dchin's picture

Group Discussion

- Fear prevents people from looking at the findings of this report from a scientific perspective. What if you were that one person in 1,904? Then you'll be glad that you were screened annually.

- However, no one is stopping you from getting tested. If you have reason to be worried--if breast cancer runs in your family or you feel a lump, then you should go get tested. On the other hand, if you are otherwise completely healthy, then it is not as urgent that you have an examination.

- There is no guarantee that the tests will always catch the cancers that will do you the most harm or that the treatments will be able to cure that cancer fast enough.

- The common perception that science is static also makes people reluctant to embrace changes in thought.

cejensen, heather18, xhan, dchin

Kalyn's picture

By Kalyn, ktan and Lili

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Group Discussion
Our group discussed the meaning of why scientific evidence for less testing has suddenly occurred. We were interested in drawing parallels between the needs of society versus the needs of the government. For example, what role does the recession play in fueling this scientific research? One can’t help but notice that less testing equals less money spent in the long term by the government. People should make themselves aware that the government may not be looking into their best interests. In fact people should be concerned that medical science can be influenced by the needs of the government.
Another issue is the way in which these articles addressed the degree in which females need to test themselves for cancer. Our group came to a consensus that it would be a very uphill battle to get people to change their original mindset from “testing more” to “testing less.”  Not only will this new line of thinking meet with resistance but what are the larger wide scale ramifications of such thinking? Like death, the appearance of cancer is unpredictable. If one person goes for a check-up every two years fine the less testing method has been implemented. But now what happens if in between that time for another test something appears? Scientists understand that there are different types of cancers that exist.  Some of these are curable when found in the early stages. What kind of medical advice can doctor’s standby when they willingly give patients advice that has the potential to put them at risk for a curable illnesses? We need to divide the advice given to people the same way scientists are grouping cancer. It’s important to recognize that some people are going to need more treatment than others or require closer examinations if such an illness runs in their family. When you group everyone together that’s when the problems start because the people who begin to deviate from the standards set in place are the ones that suffer.
The overall question of these two articles comes down to how responsible should science be for the well being of each individual? In one respect, every person is perfectly capable of going as many times as they want, to be checked out for breast cancer or prostate cancer.  But we as a society recognize that the urging of a breast cancer rally or the discouragement of new scientific evidence can easily persuade or dissuade many. When you take into consideration how science is a constant changing pool of information is it wise to put all our faith into science or should we base our knowledge off of tried and true methods? Some people go to the doctor for every little ache and pain while others refuse to see a doctor. Are there really any hard facts today to say how and why one person is healthier than the other? The true is science is never 100% correct because the people who compose their theories are flawed themselves. The scientific community never reaches a large mutual agreement until there is no shadow of a doubt about the overall consequences. Is it ok that in the meantime people are forced to gamble with their lives and that of their loved ones? Two years, two weeks or two days between testing matters little if scientists are still unsure about the results of their own findings.