I have written the above immediately
after reading your comment. The readers will be interested in following
the subject. Therefore, I suggest that you tell us about this situation
as approached by you. About losing information as time wears down
living memories: I regret not having questioned my parents about their
own lifes. Still, I got from my father how we came to our family name.
He explained why we got it at the time of Tsar Nicholas I, some 150 yr.
ago. I am the only one of the many descendants of the 5 brothers who
learned about that historical detail.
Yes, Pamela, I agree that things shouldn't be rushing around so much. Thanks
for seeing this as a quieter (more thoughtful?) place, which it is intended
to be. I suspect that has something too to do with the question you asked:
how to get more effective use out of the intellectual capital of a company.
Maybe by creating environments where the people aren't so busy rushing
around (and incentives to encourage less rushing around)? No, not easy.
But my bet is not only that it would work but that not much else will. And
that's connected (for me at least) to Helen's question too. I, at least,
can think almost anywhere, as long as I let myself go ... instead of worrying
about all the things I'm SUPPOSED to be doing. That tends to make me think
less. What do I think about? Yes, look around Serendip. THAT's what I
think about (or at least part of it). Is it really your birthday, Tania?
Come back and give Jake your advice on thinking.
And, oh yes. Jake, what is "phatic"? And where/what are "the next three Forums"? And ... thanks again for being around.
I just wanted to comment on very recent reports
on drug addiction which show that marijuana is as potentially
habit-forming as the 'hard' stimulating drugs since the
habit-forming mechanism
is the same, thus facilitating the step from marijuana to the others.
From what I read, I shall try to synthesize: 1.- Biologic molecules
have been discovered which cause the unbearable feeling of anxiety,
in definite brain areas. 2.- The brain produces its own
anxiety-preventing and relieving
molecules. 3.- The drugs used for 'highs' inhibit
for a long period
those natural
molecules. As a corollary, the
habit-forming results from the fact that anxiety is now
not prevented-inhibited
by the natural brain products. Obviously then, other molecules capable
of tiding over the anxiety in the interval permit a cure for the
acute need for stimulating drugs.
Science an its applications
are helping solve many physical problems. But think of the
people who relapse into drug using.
Their situation may be due to some brain chemical
imbalance or
to not yet detectable anatomical brain defects. But 'pure' psychological
determinants may be the culprit. It is essential to make the differential
diagnosis. Likewise, physicians can only gain in their clinical acumen
through knowledge of myths an related material.
I promised to describe
t the case of the anxiety-possessed patient who was helped by explaining
that Eve suffered from the same anxiety-producing malaise and that the snake was just trying
to help, giving the advice that apparently was common coin in ancient times
(and even today, as my doctor friend told me once).
Uncharacteristically brief,
Ron.
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: GOD and the BIG BANG
Date: Fri Aug 22 18:49:55 EDT 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia.
Name: Tania Jacob
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sat Aug 23 05:55:23 EDT 1997
Comments:
Wow! A lot has been going on since I was last here.
Paul (or should I say Professor Grobstein): Yes, it was my birthday.
Jacob: Maybe people don't have time to think.
I think the main reason I 'began' thinking is because I was a loner for many years. I was left to think. I began to think about many things, like if there was a God (so I could give my parents a reason for not going to church), how the universe began, and recently, about how unfair life is.
Has anyone ever thought that children born to 'intelligent' parents are often more sensible and intelligent than others. Well, they have a harder time than childern of parents who are on drugs or are unemployed (by have a harder time, I mean things like having to do more work around the house and hardly ever allowed to watch TV). Well these children are more sensible, and if left on their own, would not watch too much TV and help around the house. Children of less intelligent parents would be left alone when they need parents to disciplind them. Am I right in thinking this?
When I was 10 I did the experiment Galileo did in his study of motion and derived the equation 's=At^2 by myself. I told one of my teachers about my discovery, only to find out that it had been done around 300 years ago! Well, I was very dissapointed and was determined to discover something new. I'm still working on that.
Now I was known as 'The squid', in school. As I had no one to share my thoughts with, I began to read everything I could find.
And thats my life story. I hope I haven't been boring all of you.
Name: Paul Grobstein
Username: pgrobste@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Wow
Date: Sat Aug 23 12:01:04 EDT 1997
Comments:
Or, as Tania said ... WOW! Sounds like a lot of us have been looking for
Ron's chicken for a long time (I know I have), and behold ... Nice you're
all here, and to be a part of it
And, as a
bonus, some hints as to where the egg came from: believe that at least
some people LIKE to think/share thinking, give them some open space to do
it in, and ...
Maybe we're on to something ... Clearly fun for us, maybe
of more general significance. Have a look at
Making Connections ... and
Insights from the brain about education
and, much older, This isn't just MY problem
.... There are some similar thoughts from various people about how education
SHOULD be done lying around Serendip here and there.
Far from boring, Tania. A story I can identify with (I suspect most of us
can). And it raises a very interesting question: is wanting to think/create
pathological? or a characteristic of only some special people? How come
more people don't DO it? Some thoughts of my own in This isn't just MY problem
... about why more people don't do it. No, I don't think its either
pathological or inevitably a characteristic of a very small minority. In
my experience, virtually ALL humans start out life enjoying thinking/creating,
with other people. And then are progressively discouraged from continuing
to do so, by a set of forces that are very complicated but that can, in
principle, be corrected. Yes, I think most (all?) kids would not watch
too much TV if they grew up in an environment that encouraged thinking,
since that's actually MORE fun/interesting. If I'm right, it would pay all
of us to try and help make sure more kids grow up in such environments, since
it would give US more people to have fun with.
This, of course, relates as well to the drug issue which Jake alluded to.
And to some related thoughts I know to be on Ron's mind (see August 5 in
the Brain and Behavior Forum). Yes, of course, drugs influence brain states,
in ways that mimic to varying degrees things that happen in the brain for
other reasons (and yes, of course, they can be helpful in some
circumstances). The "varying degrees" is the operative point: my own bet
(as a neurobiologist, for reasons I think I can explain but would take too
long here) is that in most cases the brain states achievable by drug
manipulation are less satisfying than those that could in principle by
achieved in other ways .... and so people would in general "not watch too
much TV" in this case either, if they had viable, more satisfying options.
And all THAT relates to the Big Bang, heat, sources of order? Yeah
(embarrassed grin), I think it probably does, but that too would probably
take too long to justify here (which is already getting too long ... sorry,
friends). Suffice it to say that I think Jake's suggestion that there is
a qunatum mechanics parallel in the brain/mind realm is almost certainly
correct (see the item on the Brain and Behavior page,
subtitled "A neural uncertainty principle"). And that I think life (and
brains) are very much active players in the evolution of the universe. And
that we're currently working on a new exhibit on diffusion and its
consequences (a set of phenomena closely related to Jake's entropy concerns).
Its vcry much "in progress", with no explanatory material as yet, but you
can look at the Java applet if you want an
advance peek, and feel like playing around to figure out yourself what it
does.
Enough? Yeah, more than. Will try in the future for more of Ron's
"uncharacteristically short". Sorry. But you all triggered it. Thanks.
Wow.
Name: Jake, Jacob
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: PONDERING
Date: Sat Aug 23 17:12:56 EDT 1997
Comments:
Paul, isn't Tania something? Tania, isn't
Paul something? (I'm sure he prefers to be
called by his first name, at least by
people he can identify with). Tania, your words
carry enormous weight, thank you for crossing the Rubicon;
now you can say: "Damn the torpedoes....."
You have touched on a very critical
idea, which has been Paul's main goal in his
life as a teacher, as far as I have understood,
especially after reading his present commentary: How to teach in
such a way that the student who is not inclined to ponder
how to contribute in any way to the advancement of at least
the society
in which she/he lives,
will start to ponder.
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: PARODY AND DREAMS
Date: Sat Aug 23 17:16:45 EDT 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia.
Name: Tania Jacob
Username:
Subject: a strange dream
Date: Sun Aug 24 07:21:57 EDT 1997
Comments:
On the topic of dreams, I'll tell you about one I had sometime last year:
I had witnessed a car crash that day and remember thinking about the centre of gravity of that car. In my opinion, it shouldn't have overturned.
That night I dreamed about the 'centre of gravity', only it wasn't the centre of gravity as we know it. It was a small 'ball' that attracted any object it encounted. I don't really remember much detail, but it was a very strange dream.
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sun Aug 24 18:23:22 EDT 1997
Comments:
< grin <>>
Name: Ron
Username:
Subject: Knowledge is suffering?
Date: Mon Aug 25 08:55:13 EDT 1997
Comments:
And the LORD said.. Let there be a markup language, so that communication may be enhanced.
and there .
I'm sorry, I'll be sensible now..<grin> Seriously though there seems
to be a trend here that the world is following..
1997 the year of the Apology..
Please no need to apologise among friends for anything genuine.
On the nature of learning.. I do believe on reflection that one of the most
significant discoveries I ever made was realising how few things are truely
unquestionable *fact*. Now more than ever I feel that if the 'answer' is 42,
the question is still 'Why?' For a light-hearted look at our own deepest fears
have a look at The power of stupidity
Or the path of a genuinelysearching mind.
One of the attributes of free will seems to be the ability to 'program' our own instincts
In fact this often seems to be the best way to 'learn' many things. If you take
control of your own instincts and then learn to trust them, appropriate responses
to any situation are 'automatic' - this leaves more of the mind free to deal with
the immediate situation - which in turn lets you modify your 'instincts'...
Does this make any sense?
BTW I saw an interesting model of mind behaiviour tonight that suggests a
path of visceral->emotional->thinking. Perhaps this suggests suppression
of emotion implicitly affects 'thinking'. How do you feel about this?
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: THE LAWS OF BEING
Date: Mon Aug 25 19:31:51 EDT 1997
Comments:
ON EINSTEIN and ANTI-EINSTEIN
I have copied and pasted Ron's latest comment and his links, for quiet reading. But before I call it a day (it is after 02:00 here in Israel), I would like to participate in this subject. It is my impression that anyone who frequents Serendip is not stupid. Paul is an authority in teaching and is always endeavoring to find the best way. Yet his students are selected, for they must be capable boys and girls. For better or for worse we are mainly interested in people whom we consider at least our peers. Ron has many interesting ideas--still in the inchoate stage--and he acts as a catalyst, for a little ferment is powerful
if the right stuff is there. Since he has provided us with some rules that somebody else wrote, I would like to take this opportunity to expose three Laws of mine, especially because the third I discovered very recently. THE THREE LAWS OF BEING
The FIRST LAW OF BEING.- You are the most important being that has been or will be created...
The SECOND LAW OF BEING.-...And your value is nil!
The THIRD LAW OF BEING.- Strive to merit paying V.A.T.
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: THE GAME OF ANALOGIES
Date: Wed Aug 27 17:32:26 EDT 1997
Comments:
THE GAME OF ANALOGIES has just started at COMPLEXITY.
Test yourself. Test your children. Have fun. And remember: do not exploit
analogies by attribute to 'make a point,' for you
will be always wrong. Use them exclusively
for building up a scientific hypothesis. Otherwise,
wring your brain, use your mind--consciously,
unconsciously, or in a discret,
quantized stage--and THINK!
Name: Jacob Ghitis,MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: TIME, SPACE, ENTROPY
Date: Thu Aug 28 10:08:42 EDT 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia.
Name: Ron
Username: saspc@saspc.asn.au
Subject: Close En-counters
Date: Sun Aug 31 12:11:22 EDT 1997
Comments:
Applying the 'game of analogies' to Jake's last post returned a quote:
Eternity is time,
Time, eternity
To see the two as opposites
Is Man's perversity
-'Cherubinischer Wandersmann'
Personally I'd like *my* 'memorial' plaque to read:
"We still can't get rid of him.." < grin >
Live long and prosper....;)
Ron.
Q: How long have I got to get my reserve out if my main parachute fails?
A: The rest of your life!
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: POETRY IS A SOURCE OF INSPIRATION
Date: Fri Sep 5 08:06:11 EDT 1997
Comments:
A POET I AM Jacob Ghitis
A poet I am
But not by intention
And when so willing
I lack the inspiration.
I let the pen be
And she writes and writes free;
It is a pen very alive...
Beware: it shouldn't get dry...
For at that moment I die!
Ron, Tania liked it. Would you like to read it in the Spanish original?
Name: Paul Grobstein
Username: pgrobste@brynmawr.edu
Subject: To Jake, Ron, Tania ... et al.
Date: Sun Sep 7 09:41:34 EDT 1997
Comments:
Alright, no apologies. But, yeah, I've been scarcer than I'd rather be ...and haven't been pulling my forum weight. Metaphorically speaking ... (). Looks though like you can do perfectly well without me. Give them HTML and .... Am proud of all of you.
And I haven't been totally irresponsible. Jake already found a whole new Serendip section on Biology that we've put together in the last couple of weeks (yes, classes have starteed and yours truly is teaching a new intro bio course). And there are some Forum infrastructure improvements as well, which you may or may not have noticed. The comment entry space now word-wraps (like any good word processor), so you don't have to hit RETURN to keep your lines in view. And you don't have to scroll down to the most recent messages any more. There's a "Go to last comment" button at the top of the Forum pages to get you there quickly (be sure to let the page finish loading before you click it or you'll get a "loading interrupted" warning).
And, oh yeah, I put up an article that I'd promised Ron. Buddhist Meditation and Personal Construct Psychology is an interesting effort to compare and contrast an eastern and a western approach to, among other things, what is and is not eternal.
So ... I'm alive, and haven't been entirely neglecting my obligations. But, yeah, a few things have yet to be gotten to. I will get to them. One way or another. Promise.
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: LINGUISTIC COMMUNICATION
Date: Tue Sep 9 16:37:35 EDT 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia.
Name: Jake
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: Welcome, Giancarlo Livraghi
Date: Tue Sep 9 17:18:45 EDT 1997
Comments:
Found your way around, Giancarlo? Thanks again four your interest in contributing. The readers will be most interested in commenting your ideas on STUPIDITY, I should believe.
Name: Giancarlo Livraghi
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Re: Welcome
Date: Wed Sep 10 06:46:37 EDT 1997
Comments:
Thank you, Jake. :) Yes, I am beginning to find my way around Serendip (sort of). And yes, I would be very interested in comments on my stupidity notes. As you know, I've always been fascinated with this scary subject.
You've prompted me to think about it a little more... there is a followup wandering somewhere in my mind. I hope to be able to write it down and post it in a week or so.
Name: Ron
Username: saspc@saspc.asn.au
Subject: Obligations..
Date: Wed Sep 10 14:07:11 EDT 1997
Comments:
Thank's for posting a link to that thesis Paul, and thank the author from me too. The fixes to the forum are good - but I see you still haven't fixed the double post bug <grin>. You could probably catch that one by spawning a new browser window for posting comments (If you're not sure how to do this I'll give you more details). The problem seems to occur after posting and then using the reload comments button. If you then use the 'back' button on your browser to go to a previous thread - the browser may upload the form data a second time. Spawning a new window would eliminate this if it closed after the message was posted. (and also give the added benefit of allowing people to see the post they are replying to while composing a rely online...)
On that note, Jake asked if I could give him a tut. on HTML markup. I thought it might be a somewhat less self serving contribution that I could make here <grin>.
So here it is..
A brief intro to HTML
For voyagers to Serendip
What is HTML?
The text is available in Serendipia
Have Fun,
Ron.
Name: Ron
Username:
Subject: Bug Fix
Date: Wed Sep 10 14:25:45 EDT 1997
Comments:
I'm posting this to hopefully fix the 'bold lock' that was left with us a few posts back (perhaps you could edit the offending post Paul and then delete this one..)
Oh and also to say another great source for HTML examples is to open the View - Document source window of your browser.
Name: Paul Grobstein
Username: pgrobste@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Upward and onward
Date: Thu Sep 11 14:24:20 EDT 1997
Comments:
Morning, friends (yeah, well, at least it is (was) here). Yeah, I cleaned things up a bit. Jake put in a <b> when he wanted a <p> back on Sep 9 (4:37). So I fixed that, and erased the second posting. Which, Jake, was because you wanted to get it right, right? Rather than because of Ron's (grin) "double post bug", right? Yeah, is nice to be able to read postings while writing responses, but you can do that yourself (at least on Netscape, I assume equivalents on lesser products) by selecting "New Web Browser" under the "File" menu.
As for technical matters in general, I assume no one is under the delusion that I am (or could be) running Serendip myself. But it occurs to me that there are some important players who've never been properly introduced here. Bogdan Butoi, for example. Bogdan ... ? You around here somewhere? Good. Bogdan, meet friends. Friends, meet Bogdan. MA in Computer Science from Bucharest, one-time Roumanian computer entrepeneur, currently Ph.D. student in math and Serendip webmaster without whom we would ALL be in serious trouble. Bogdan's the one who knows about window spawning and such things, and has even (grin) been known to do it on occasion (for example), though not ordinarily in public. Spawing reply windows in Forums an interesting idea. Bogdan, whaddya think?
Delighted to have Giancarlo around. Serendipitously (appropriately), A Short Introduction to the History of Stupidity, which Giancarlo writes about, leapt at me off a used bookstore shelf twenty years or so ago. I need to tell it down off my shelf (and will), but like very much the idea that much of the damage humans due to each other stems from (in principle correctable) stupidity, rather than from more difficult to deal with malevolence. Will look forward to more from Giancarlo.
Which brings me to a geneeral thought/suggestion. Very pleased with Ron's HTML primer, think it could well be expanded, made more generally available. Have long felt that many of Jake's contributions could use more space, exposure. And may well be true for the hoped for addiditional thoughts of Giancarlo's as well. I don't AT ALL want to lessen communication here, but maybe we could use a new additional section in which longer essays could be more easily posted and accessed, for continuing discusion here. Mayybe something called "Thoughts of Serendipists" (following Jake)?
People could send them to me as text files, with (ideally but not necessarily) HTML markups in place (which I could, of course, check), and I could then post them. What do you think?
Name: Bogdan
Username: bbutoi@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Hello everybody
Date: Thu Sep 11 16:58:13 EDT 1997
Comments:
Hello to all Serendip's fans. Glad you're here helping Serendip. I was for a while the guy behind the scene, somebody you don't need to know about in order to enjoy Serendip. But since Serendip is also (at least 1%) my child (hope Paul will be happy with his 99% :) ), I decided (after Paul's posting) to show up and say Hello.
Talking about the posting form, we (me and Paul) are working on a new engine which will provide users with a way to check their HTML texts before posting them. I hope that (together with the whidow spawing) will please you all. It will be up and running (hope) by the beginning of next week.
And don't forget: I'm always happy to receive comments about our work and new ideas to improve it.
Name: Jake
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: TO MY FRIENDS
Date: Fri Sep 12 17:33:16 EDT 1997
Comments:
TO BOGDAN, RON and PAUL
A comment on your latter posts:
Bogdan , glad to 've made your acquaintance. The w. spawning is very facilitating; now with the preview feature you have two winners. Will keep in touch, Jake
Ron , thanks for the primer on HTML complementing a previous lesson by Paul. Yes, I realized I'd left a < b > 'trap,' which with Bogdan's help will not recur. Now I've learned also to wink and to link. Will write, Jake
Paul , reluctant e-mailer: Yes, to your questions. Perhaps 'serendipians.' Let's have other options. Jake
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject: THE POWER OF STUPIDITY
Date: Fri Sep 12 17:38:55 EDT 1997
Comments:
Condensed from:
THE POWER OF STUPIDITY
By Giancarlo Livraghi
There is a little essay called "The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity," which may be the best
ever written on the subject.
These are the Five Laws of Stupidity according to Carlo Cipolla.
First Law
We always underestimate the number of stupid people.
People we had thought to be rational and intelligent suddenly turn out to be unquestionably stupid.
Day after day we are hampered in whatever we do by stupid people who invariably turn up in the least appropriate place.
It is impossible to set a percentage, because any number we choose will be too
small.
Second Law
The probability of a person being stupid is independent of any other
characteristic of that person.
Third (and Golden) Law
A stupid person is someone who causes damage to another person, or a group
of people, without any advantage accruing to himself (or herself) -- or even with some resultant self-damage.
Fourth Law
Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid people.
They constantly forget that at any moment, and in any circumstance, associating
with stupid people invariably constitutes an expensive mistake.
Fifth Law
A stupid person is the most dangerous person in existence.
This is probably the most widely understood of the Laws, if only because it is common knowledge that intelligent people, hostile as they might be, are predictable, while stupid people are not. When stupidity gets into the act, the damage is enormously greater than the benefit to anyone: The single most dangerous factor in any human society is stupidity.
A stupid person is more dangerous than a bandit.
When stupidity gets into the act, the damage is enormously greater than the benefit to anyone.
Stupid people don't know they are stupid, and that is one more reason why they are extremely dangerous.
THE END (This summary is posted with the author's approval.)
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: ON THE PREVIOUS (STUPIDITY)
Date: Sat Sep 13 16:46:36 EDT 1997
Comments:
The main reason for posting the summary of Giancarlo Livraghi's work relates to the negative impact of stupidity in all social affairs. This subject ought to interest everybody concerned with the welfare of our world. Can education be helpful in this regard? Are there different sorts of stupidity? At any rate, no doubt we all have suffered at the hands (minds) of stupid people who are in positions of authority. Don't we complain about beaurocrats in general, and feel awed when meeting one that
truly knows her/his job and is kind and gentle? On the other hand...What can be expected when 80% of the population, no matter its status, is dangerous and doesn't even know that? And what if it is a neighbor? And what about the police?
The link to Livraghi's whole article will be added soon. Also, this forum
is too long and cluttered: these problems will also be remedied, obviously.
Name: Ron
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sun Sep 14 06:41:52 EDT 1997
Comments:
fixed??
Name: Ron
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sun Sep 14 06:51:09 EDT 1997
Comments:
Oh and the center one too.. < grin >
ps. to duplicate the mythical 'double post bug'.
1. Post a message
2. Click 'Read more Comments' button.
3. After comments have reloaded: Click your browsers 'Reload' button.
(as may happen if checking back later in a session online.)
Wow.. Deja vu.. (grin).
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sun Sep 14 06:57:15 EDT 1997
Comments:
Try again.. (Oh, reloading as I described above is essential if you have a cache operative and limited refresh checking, and post more than one message..)
Name: Ron
Username: saspc@saspc.asn.au
Subject: That's better
Date: Sun Sep 14 11:04:13 EDT 1997
Comments:
Hi All.
Sorry if I've made extra work for you Bogdan(grin), It's a minor malady of mine, to want good things to get better.. It sounds like you and Paul have some good ideas in the pipeline. Hi to Giancarlo too, though I really must throw in a plug for Chris at EGR - he's indirectly responsible for your observations getting aired here. I'd love to hear your recent ideas.(might be a nice opener for Paul's 'essay' section;-)
If there is demand, I'd be happy to write a more comprehensive primer on HTML markup, but I suspect adequate resources are already availiable with a little searching. A longer document would perhaps be an appropriate page outside of the forum text. I tried to keep to concise basics useful for posters to this forum, but a little more depth may be appropriate. For instance, perhaps I could have emphasised a little stronger, that:
You must close ALL < (/)CENTER > , < (/)B > - Bold, and < (/)A > - Anchor, type markups.
ie. If you use three < CENTER > tags - there must be three corresponding < /CENTER > tags.
Small errors in syntax can lead to wildly 'unexpected' results. Jake you might like to look again at the 'general form' of the Anchor, in particular noting that " is not the same as '', that an external URL will require it's full 'http://...' form, and that the anchor has three parts:
1. The 'opening' tag, containing the label or link referenced.
< A HREF= " http://www.saspc.asn.au/saspc " >
2. The text to appear highlighted in the document.
Skydive Lower Light.
3. And the all important 'closing' tag.
< /A >
Hope that makes it a little clearer..
Thought for the day: How often is ignorance confused with (or cause for accusations of..) Stupidity...
Name: Giancarlo Livraghi
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Stupidity and education
Date: Sun Sep 14 12:50:01 EDT 1997
Comments:
I am working on a followup on "Supidity", which I hope will be online soon; it contains some of my answers to Jake's questions. But I would like to add some comments on education.
The debate about "specialized" vs "general" education has been going on for decades. But I don't tink it has led to very effective solutions. We live in a world of fast change and increasing complexity. There is an unquestionable need for high specialization in many fields; but we are heading for serious trouble unless that is balanced by a much more serious commitment in the broad perspective: helping people to learn how to think for themselves, how to be flexible, how to adjust to different or unfamiliar circumstances... and how to learn a new trade or style of life when a certain type of over-specialized knowledge becomes useless (it can happen to just about anyone in today's world, and quite unpredictably).
There is (I guess we all agree) no direct relationship between stupidity and ignorance. But (as Carlo Cipolla pointed out) the reverse is also true: there is no direct relationship between intelligence and knowledge.
We can not make people intelligent (or less stupid) by pumping knowledge into them. But educators can reduce the damage of stupidity if they help their pupils (and themselves) to be aware of the problem, to watch out for its malicious effects, and to keep their minds open to never-ending learning. Perhaps one of the strongest antidotes to stupidity is curiosity: a perennial deside to learn, from daily experience as well as books and teachers - and from our own mistakes.
One of the reasons for so much uncontrolled stupidity running so many things is that people who have great depth in some detail of technique concetrate so much in their specialization that they become extremely superficial about everything else.
One of the crucial points that are not discused in the original Cipolla Theory is that we are all stupid to some extent, and that we often fail to notice how stupid we are. As I said many times, the only reason I think that I am not totally stupid is that occasionally I am aware of my stupidity.
In my (occasional) experience with teaching I find that attempts to make it open-ended meet with strong opposition. Pupils prefer to be "told", to be given "how to" rules and formulas. Teachers and schools systems want the same. I had, sometimes, high ratings from students because they appreciated a provocative and non-conventional approach; but just as often I had low ratings because when I told people that they should try to analyse and find solutions (and think "laterally") rather than "go by the book"... they were unhappy. "If he can't just give us a set of rules he doesn't know the subject well enough" was their judgment. Much to my dismay, I find that generally there is a less "open" reaction from executives and managers in so-called advanced trainig sessions than there is from university or post-graduate students. I don't think that has much to do with age. I think it's the dulling experience of working in organizations, where people are often rewarded for not thinking, "playing by the rules" and doing as they are told.
All that, I think, is rather stupid...
Name: Ron
Username: saspc@saspc.asn.au
Subject: Ignorance is bliss..
Date: Mon Sep 15 02:06:25 EDT 1997
Comments:
Actually Giancarlo, I consider there to be quite a strongly observed link between ignorance and 'innocent' stupidity, as evidenced by your examples. Ignorance is not merely a lack of knowlege - Ignorance is not-knowing what knowledge to apply to a particular situation.
If I need a car for instance - I can use my knowlege of how locking devices can by bypassed (or more simply - my knowledge that windows break) to aquire my neighbors car, or alternatively I could use the same knowledge to help people (and earn 'money' or other goods) so I may buy (or hire)(or build < grin > ) my own.
One of these ideas is clearly stupid.(I assume that most of you will agree the first.) Yet the only difference is in the way the knowledge is applied. (and perhaps long term goals ;-)
I tend to draw a distinction between 'aquired knowledge' and Knowledge. Any animal (and many plants and machines) can be taught/trained to repeat a set of tasks, and thus perform (even specialised) work. This is 'aquired' knowledge. 'True' Knowledge comes when we can intelligently choose between the most approriate sets of tasks we know, to achieve a desired result, or even create a new set of tasks 'custom made' to most efficiently generate a particular outcome. An infinite number of monkies would type Shakespeare much quicker if they knew that was what they wanted from their typing.
By that token I have rarely found an intelligent person, who having done something stupid, has not grown in their Knowlege by realising precisely Why it was stupid. (The same for unfounded accusations of stupidity.)
Nevertheless, this does not take anything away from the observations of yourself and Cipolla, but perhaps may offer new insight into a solution. I must say I wholeheartedly agree with much of what you have stated - in fact so much so that I have staked my future on 'specialising in generalisation'(grin). It has long been a favorite quip of mine that, 'An expert is someone who knows more and more, about less and less, untill they know everything about nothing.' I feel specialisation should be a dynamic action, resulting as neccessary from a growing general background. 'Training' people to be specialists would seem to be a highly unsuccessful method for achieving real advances in any field. (but far more successful at creating productive 'grunts' for the dollar machine.)
Even so, we are indoctrinated from a very early age into the established system. Children are taught from an early age that to do well, they have to pass tests. Then we drill them in the 'rules' needed to pass those tests - giving them the 'security' that, 'as long as you know the rules, you'll be OK.'
After many years of this, how do you expect them to react when they discover(the lucky ones) or are told, that the real world is nothing like that at all? How does any creature act when you challenge it's security?
If anyone doubts the value of being able to rapidly adapt to any circumstance, I'll refer you to a race of giant reptiles that once enjoyed unchallenged domination of this planet, for a while...
Name: anonymous
Username: Jake
Subject: TEACHING,STUPIDITY VS. MISTAKE
Date: Mon Sep 15 18:28:10 EDT 1997
Comments:
Just a short observation: I have read Paul's writings posted in the Forums, and find that Giancarlo is expressing very much parallel ideas. Perhaps they could join forces in the crusade for rational education?
Now, specifically speaking of stupidity, is it possible that the apparent
disinterest of students is related to quirks of mental development? I would be ashamed of telling how I got the best marks ever in History while at High School, when I really disliked it. Yet, about age 40 I developed a great liking for it, especially when I came across Will Durant's tomes, several of which I have read even three times. What is known about students becoming interested in creative learning after graduating? A. Einstein is given as an example of a student who did not
get outstanding grades.
About the definition and use of the word "stupidity": Perhaps we should use this term only in cases where an act causes damage
to others and to the actor himself, who continues believing in his righteousness? Other cases would then be qualified as "mistakes."
One could say, "we learn from our mistakes, therefore, if we do not make mistakes, we are making a mistake." But, how can we learn from our stupidities? It is known that people who have sufferd damage at their prefrontal cortex tend to make wrong decisions and don't learn from them.
Name: Giancarlo
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Re: Ignorance is bliss
Date: Wed Sep 17 07:07:12 EDT 1997
Comments:
Ron, I agree with your comments. They also help me to clarify my thinkling. I don't think ignorance is bliss, and I didn't mean to imply that knowledge is useless. The basic issue (as you pointed out) is that what makes the difference is not the quantity of knowledge that we can pile up, or can be pressured into us by teaching; it's the ability to use knowledge. The fact (as srongly remarked by Cipolla) is that there is as much stupidity among University professors as there is among illiterates.
If I want to buy a car and I don't have the faintest idea of what a car is or how it works, it is not particularly difficult for me to find out, as long as I know how to "use knowledge" - and I also how to choose the information I really need in the midst of more available information that I can possibly handle.
I share your views also on other matters. Like you, I had high marks at school in history, though some of my teachers, maybe, would not have been pleased if they knew how I got them. I did some much more serious work on that at university, and I've had a keen interest in the subject ever since. One interesting fact, which may be worth some further analysis, is that stupidity has a much greater impact on historical events than most historians are prepared to admit.
I agree also with your comment on reptiles. In several things I wrote I used the dino metaphor. It was also used brilliantly by Michael Crichton in something he wrote online in 1994, called "Mediasaurus", where he explained why mass media (as they are today) are heading for extinction...
Name: Ron
Username:
Subject: Knowledge is Suffering
Date: Thu Sep 18 08:59:11 EDT 1997
Comments:
Hi All,
You are right Giancarlo, The heading of my last post was a little misleading given the tone of the main text. I also do not consider ignorance to be bliss, or even a trait to be encouraged (except perhaps when applied toward govt. beaurocrats during moments of weakness(grin)).
It is however a fundamental deduction in buddhist logic. Without getting too long winded about this, it runs along the lines of: Those with knowledge will be called upon at various times to judge. The greater the knowledge about that which is judged against, the greater then the knowledge of the suffering and loss ultimately caused by that judgement. This can be extended to exemplify how only those ignorant of the far reaching consequences of their actions, (as most of us are, most of the time..) can make judgements without angish. (hence: Knowledge is Suffering - Ignorance is Bliss, which is a subset of the more encompassing belief that Suffering comes from attatchment.)
"The fact (as srongly remarked by Cipolla) is that there is as much stupidity among University professors as there is among illiterates."
Indeed in the same way that we all shine in different, often highly individual ways, outstanding stupidity also seems to be highly unique in this fashion. A common reflection among skydivers is 'Learn from others mistakes, you may not live long enough to make them all yourself.'
My personal benchmark these days is not so much to look at my individual actions, nor to place too much weight on my past succeses or failures, but rather to see that my actions as a whole result in more benefit than damage.
"If I want to buy a car and I don't have the faintest idea of what a car is or how it works..."
Then you have become a victim of clever marketing, why else would you want one.. McCoke(tm) anyone??(grin)(I do agree with the rest of the remarks you made about this.)
"I had high marks at school in history, though some of my teachers, maybe, would not have been pleased if they knew how I got them."
Another beautiful example of institutionalised stupidity - rather than commend you on your intrepid cunning (for you applied knowledge that many of your peers did not), the stereotypical response would be to want to punish you for circumventing the system. (perhaps this would be just, as detection would have meant you had failed in the application of your chosen knowledge(grin)) I can't help thinking that regardless of your 'study' methods - you probably gained more from that history class than many others that also attended with you.
As an aside here I have found great value of late in becoming more aware of the personal history of many of the important figures that have bequeathed us the world we live in today - it seems to be of great value in assessing the strengths and weaknesses of their beliefs. (many of which we seem to have inherited without question). Yet in my younger days, with eyes only for the future, the value of history was lost on me. I guess it took personal experience with the powerfully causal nature of the past to truely appreciate it's value.
"...stupidity has a much greater impact on historical events than most historians are prepared to admit."
And historical stupidity has a much greater effect on the present than most of us could begin to imagine... Yet we reinforce this inherited stupidity vehemently - It's not difficult to gather a rabid mob to burn some modern day heretic, who dared to challenge 'conventional wisdom'. The more things change, the more they stay the same. - who was it that said that?
I'll leave this for now with a quote from the mystic physicist (sorry Jake ;-):
It's nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled youthful curiosity, for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom. - Albert Einstein
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject:
Date: Thu Sep 18 18:59:46 EDT 1997
Comments:
I have enjoyed reading Giancarlo's and Ron's comments. So, we tend to disregard History in our youth. Then, something should be done by teachers in this regard, and more History ought to be made available for adults.
Giancarlo, so you were also tricky about getting good marks in History!
Shame on us!
Ron, the saying is in French, therefore it was aired by a Frenchman, most likely. I believe it was expressed in th 18th century, either by a politician or by Voltaire? No, not by him: he was not cynic, he actually wanted change. So, it was a politician (therefore, a cynic).
Speaking of judging, by coincidence I just posted a short essay on axiology (value judgments)in Complexity.
Name: Gary Lane
Username: glane@the hub.com.au
Subject: personality
Date: Fri Sep 19 06:06:50 EDT 1997
Comments:
If personality is as solid and inate as many may suggest, then why is it that a person can have different personality traits in different situations IE as a father,as a husband, as a teacher, as a worker etc. When we try to assess personality we often get the result of how an individual views themselves rather than some fixed identity.I have a keen interest in personality as a clinical psychologist especially in the area of employment and assessment.
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: PERSONALITY
Date: Fri Sep 19 12:52:01 EDT 1997
Comments:
Gary,your question has tempted me to answer it, just by way of a personal opinion. I wonder if personality may be qualified as ‘solid.’ You might have read my comment here at Serendip about being unambiguous, following the principles of Linguistic Analysis. Innate? I thought it is widely recognized that upon a genetic platform, any quantum of learning determines a change, as subtle as it may be, in the person. Nature AND Nurture, as Shakespeare (The Tempest) probably implied. As I see it, a well coordinated personality is just one, with several ramifications, manifested according to circumstances. You might as well include the following ‘situations’ to the ones you mention: car driving, alcohol-tolerance, risk analysis, for instance. Do you have a way of testing all variables? April fool's day, Purim, carnivals, Saturnalia,
serve as scape-valves to excessive rigidity in our personalities. Please comment.
Name: Giancarlo
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Miscellanea
Date: Tue Sep 23 05:56:08 EDT 1997
Comments:
I hope in the friendly atmosphere of Serendipity I shall be forgiven if (just this time) I write a messy message mixing different subjects.
On tecnhicalities
I hope I get the paragraphs right this time... but I have two questions.
Why do we have to use HTML to wtite our comments? Not all people writing in forums are familiar with that lamnguage, and this is the only forum I know that requites it.
Why do we have to write ionline? I generally write off-line, but I can't do it with Serendip.
Plus ça change...
I can't think of any "author"; maybe it's just folklore. My grandmother used to say it (she was French, and also a very remarkable woman). As I understand it, it is not a rejection of innovation; but just the notion that some things (ça) appear to change but don't. Which of course is often true. I also think it's generally meant in a negative sense: sometning that we would like to change, but doesn't.
History
I did not "cheat" at school. I simply used books that were not the official textbooks, including some that "rigid" teachers could see as frivolous, or too controversial. Some teachers encouraged that, some didn't... What is relevant here (as has been commented) it the style of teaching; and also that history (as any other subject) can be taught at fifferent levels of depth. Of course it is not possible to get into as much depth in ordinary schools as can be done in universities concentrating on that subject; but the issue is not the amount of knowledge, it's the angle. At all levels students can be encouraged to understand history rather than just memorize names, dates and events... but I guess we all agree on the issue of learning and teaching.
Stupidity
Here is a brave, but probably disastrous, attempt to provide links. If I fail, I hope Jake or Paul or some other expert can do it properly.
this is supposed to be a link to my original comments on "The Power of Stupidity".
this is supposed to be a link to Part Two, that I just wrote.
Cheers to all,
Name: Giancarlo
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Ops
Date: Tue Sep 23 06:05:57 EDT 1997
Comments:
I knew I would make a mistake... :| writing online encourages typos... here are the links again:
The Power of Stupidity
Part Two
I hope they work this time... and please forgive my clumsiness.
Name: Giancarlo
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Link crazy
Date: Tue Sep 23 07:22:32 EDT 1997
Comments:
Please forgive me, but I'm getting a bit link crazy ;-) and experimenting (much to my surprise, they seem to work). I feel like a child with a new toy.
If you find a US link more convenient, here is the original link to the first part of "The Power of Stupidity". In a few day's time also "Stupidity Two" should become available on that site.
I promise this is the end of my messing around.
Cheers
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: HISTORY, HTML, CHEATING and TEACHING
Date: Tue Sep 23 17:39:09 EDT 1997
Comments:
To whom it might concern: Let it be known that I got best marks in History by the expedient of studying only the teacher’s pet subjects—Napoleon, for instance. The problem was what subject to prepare for the finals. Solution: The teacher declared me exempt!
As told, HTML is only required for beauty. It is most convenient for poems; otherwise, indicate paragraph by means of XXXX or similar. I prepare long comments off-line, copy and paste on-line. Utilizing WORD
I avoid typos and wrong words.
On teaching: I read today an editorial in Science dealing with the challenges of teaching in this information age. Perhaps this is the subject teachers ought to concentrate on: How to adapt teaching institutions to the
sudden onslaught of free-for-all wealth of information. Again, the core remains: teaching how to find out which information to process into knowledge. The following terms are relevant: 'working memory' and
'semantic memory.' Computers utilize similar memories: RAM (working) and hard disk (semantic).
I have the impression that I have enough time disposable to do effectively the transfer of information to
knowledge. I read slowly and find connections with knowledge present, which becomes enriched and in turn makes more connections. I also can devote a very long time in the analysis of a bridge hand.
I am quitting this forum, it is too long, and neither Paul nor Bogdan are available to make order.
Name: Ron
Username: saspc@saspc.asn.au
Subject: One Man's Trash is....
Date: Thu Sep 25 01:53:03 EDT 1997
Comments:
Hi All,
Thanks for taking the time to learn to post that link Giancarlo, Jake is right, you do not have to use HTML to make a post here (and you can compose replies offline and then paste them into the dialog box, if you prefer), but it is a bit like punctuation, in that it can be used to enhance the readability of an online document. Most people once online quickly learn to use emoticons (or 'smileys' ;-) to enhance the subtlty of their writing. Hypertext markup is yet another extension of that.
eg. "I didn't say you said that."
"I didn't say you said that."
"I didn't say you said that."
..these all use the same words but I think you will agree can have importantly subtle differences in interpretation. By adding some form of emphasis marking, I can make MY interpretation somewhat clearer, even in this trivial case.
Your series of posts was a beautiful example of the learning curve at work. 'Why do I have to learn this..?(groan)' - 'Oh.. wait a minute.. hey, this is actually useful.. and fun..'(grin).
I hope you did not take my comments on 'cheating' (your word, not mine(grin)) as a personal affront. I did not intend to inflict a moral standpoint on your actions, but I feel that 'cheating' is perhaps as misunderstood as Stupidity. If you went outside the bounds of the 'normal' curriculum, that could be perceived by some as a 'cheat' or by others as extending your ability in an intelligent way. In hindsight (which always seems 20/20 (grin)), I would say that my own academic success' was a result of a desire to learn and extend to that which was outside of the established curriculum. If you consider that most of the significant discoveries attributable to 'Man' involve some kind of shortcut or 'cheat' to extablished knowlegde (Occam's razor is perhaps our best historical example of trying to define this method), then intelligent cheating is a highly desirable trait to encourage. (as opposed to 'stupid cheating' which aids no-one.)
The 'wheel' is perhaps our most pervading example of our learned ability to cheat friction...
Briefly on 'plus ca change': there is a word in the english language that many here will recognise as a simile 'homeostasis' - which is the innate ability of an object to remain apparently unchanging despite influences acting upon it. It's applicability to human form and nature would suggest that change, while also innate, is a fickle process to conciously attempt to control.
Voltaire not a cynic?? I am reminded of how he savaged Leibniz for his speculations on the existance/creation of the universe. Liebniz postulated that if there was in fact a 'creator' that it would be logical for such a creator to be rational, omniscient and omnipotent, any other option would imply that the 'creator' was flawed. It then follows that such a creator would be likely to choose the best of all possible worlds to create, as any other choice would be irrational.
Voltaire's public reply was. "Oh Dr. Pangloss!(Liebniz) If this is the best of all possible worlds, what must the others be like?" But perhaps this is unrepresentative of him?
While I don't neccesarily agree with Liebniz need for a 'God of the gaps in our understanding', his logic, based on his assumptions, was quite sound.
Name: Giancarlo
Username: gian@gandalf.it
Subject: Cheats and cynics
Date: Thu Sep 25 09:43:01 EDT 1997
Comments:
No, Ron, I didn't take your comment on my "cheating" as a criticism; nor was my comment on what I actually did "defensive" (I was trying to make, or confirm, a general point). I agree entirely with your thinking. "Cheating" can be very healthy; "breaking the rules" is often the only way of making any significant ptogress.
Was Voltaire a "cynic"? I guess so. But that is not necessarily a "destructive" attitude. "Is this the best of possible worlds?" is a very strong philosophical question; and indeed "Candide" is not an exercise in naivety, but a cutting criticism of Leibinitz.
I believe creative/innovative thinking is always based (whether we are aware of it or not)on the assumption that this is *not* "the best of possible worlds" and our understanding of the "world" is not the best possible way of understanding. True innovating thinking is the art of the impossible - or what appears to be impossible on the basis of existing knowledge.
This leads straight into one of my favorite subjects, complexity, turbolence, chaos, lateral thinking... and to the original Socratic notion, "the more I know, the more I know that I do'nt know"... and to the basic issue of knowledge, or if you prefer "cognitive thinkig", which has always been the basic and most difficult of all philosophical disciplines and now is even more crucial than ever...
Cheers,
Name: Ron
Username:
Subject: Kaos.. and Control
Date: Thu Sep 25 16:11:48 EDT 1997
Comments:
Perhaps, I did not do justice to Voltaire's concerns above, but his method of vitriolic lampooning of Leibniz would seem more like a kneejerk 'reaction' than a considered criticism of Leibniz ideas. Liebniz himself was a vocal critic of many of Newton's more frivolous assumptions. Nonetheless, many of Voltaire's concerns were not naive but perhaps somewhat egotistical. He raises the point of what place has evil in this so called perfect world - would not the best of all possible worlds be free from pain and suffering.
Valid points, but not in the context to which Liebniz referred. Good and Evil are human constructs, they have no real place on a universal scale. These concerns are well addressed in the timeless, 'La Morte D'Arthur', where in the spring-time of the land, when all was good Arthur asks, 'Where lies evil in our land - have we vanquished it entirely', to which his mentor responds, 'Good and Evil, there is not one without the other..'
On a universal scale, where all is ultimately conserved, death of the old is the sweet seed of the new. It is only humans, not the universe(or 'nature') that finds this less than perfect.
So while in our own eyes, our world may be less than perfect, and this is probably true because our understanding of it is less than perfect (it may be perfect but we just don't realise..), this only really effects our own survival within a perfect system. The universe cares little for our opinion on it's perfectness or otherwise, and will continue to go on existing no matter what we do to stuff up our tiny portion of it. We certainly can't threaten it with a 10 megaton MIRV.(grin)
I do always get a chuckle out of Socrates' irony, considering that most people do not know that they 'do not know, what they do not know'. It was exploration into the meta-thinking fractal that indirectly led to me being here (and at EGR). By thinking, I can solve problems. By thinking about thinking, I can devise better ways to think when solving problems. By thinking about this, I can...
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject: On VOLTAIRE
Date: Thu Sep 25 18:02:16 EDT 1997
Comments:
Please, Ron and Giancarlo, choose another forum, like Complexity, to discuss complex subjects! It takes too long to reach the end of the column and I will miss your points of view otherwise. I'll check in a week from now.
Voltaire: a satirist. He mocked Leibniz with examples of his ‘best of all possible worlds,’ like when he deals with the famous earthquake of Lisbon with the horrible loss of life because God's creation
decided to tremble when the Cathedral was replete and the congregants were ready to sing His glory.
On Socrates: I was much impressed by his Apology, as given to us by Plato. I found out that Socrates has been misjudged on the reasons for having been convicted.
Name: Tania
Username: jacob@net1.nw.com.au
Subject:
Date: Tue Oct 7 08:41:02 EDT 1997
Comments:
hi everyone I just called to say hi. I've been very busy lately, so forgive me for not taking part in your intellectual meditations. Every so often I think of all of you and 'eavesdrop' from under my pile of work.
Jacob: your poem on complexity is beautiful
Ron: as you can see, your teachings on HTML have improved my artless writing. thanks
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject: So glad, Tania!
Date: Wed Oct 15 17:42:31 EDT 1997
Comments:
I took a glance to-day at the forums and found you here! I have been debating with myself if to send you a message, but decided to wait for your sign. Please do not post here, because it is too long and cluttered. Paul told me that he is working on streamlining. In the meantime I am posting in www.sabranet.
Why didn't you post in Complexity? That would have shown me directly that
you liked my complex poem. I'll be pleased to receive a message from you.
Name: Paul Grobstein
Username: pgrobste@brynmawr.edu
Subject: PLEASURES (and problems)
Date: Sat Oct 18 11:57:25 EDT 1997
Comments:
Greetings, all. I've been away too long ... but the upside is a real joy at finding what has been wrought in my absence. Yes, of course we all agree that the need is to get more people to think, and its very satisfying to find myself in the midst of friends who share that understanding. Please believe me if I say that my absence has been because I've been off working on the problem? You can find some evidence in Serendip's new Biology section.
No, of course, one doesn't have to use HTML around here, but yes, of course, its fun. Which is to say what's already been said here both in words and deeds: what's important (and fun) is NOT being right, and hence becoming steadily less wrong.
In which spirit, Serendip itself evolves. Yes, yes, slower than some might have preferred (hmmm, now there's a theme for further consideration; I've come to believe patience is essential to "getting less wrong"; just my old age or something more fundamental?). Regardless, Bogdan and I HAVE been working on some forum improvements (for here and the rest of Serendip's forums), and they should be in place within the next week. They'll include a new interface which will allow one to check one's messages before submitting them (so you can, among other things, see whether HTML markups are doing what you want ... or even just try out HTML markups for fun ... or, as presently, ignore HTML markups entirely). And we're creating a new home, Serendipia, for longer messages, so the Forums themselves can be cleaned up, and won't get so lengthy in the future. Serendipia will be linked reciprocally with the Forums, so one can go back and forth between there and related longer contributions. In short, give and take stays healthy and alive in the Forums, but longer contributions to discuss there get sent by email for posting in Serendipia.
Perfect? NO, of course not. There is no such thing. But "less wrong"? Hope you all think so ... and share my pleasure in the new as the product of all our collective activities/experiences, at Serendip and elsewhere.
Name: Jake
Username: ghitis@star.net
Subject: SERENDIP DISCOVERED IN THE HOLY LAND!
Date: Sat Oct 25 17:51:07 EDT 1997
Comments:
ON SERENDIPITY
Jeff Abramowitz , the Internet weekly columnist in the Jerusalem Post weekly magazine, and whom I do not know personally, printed SERENDIP'S logo as the week's choice and wrote the following on October 24 1997 :
"SERENDIP" (serendip.brynmawr.edu) is another fine site, aimed at "people who suspect that life's instructions are always ambiguous and incomplete." All of us, in other words. Actually, it is difficult to classify this one. It is not fun, although fun is to be had; it doesn't qualify fully as entertainment, since you have to do a fair amount of thinking, and it isn't really 100% educational, although you emerge from it edified. I would call it "edutainment," except I hate that word, and after the revolution, who ever invented it can look forward to be edutained in front of a firing squad. It's best to let the site describe itself: "Serendip is both an expanding forum and a continually developing set of resources to explore and support intellectual and social change in education, in social organization... and in how one makes sense of life." Forget the bit about change in education, and social organization (unless you're that way inclined, in which case abi gezunt). It's the last bit, making sense of life, which provides the serendipity.
Each subarea of "Serendip"--the brain, biology, science, culture and so on--contains interactive games, puzzles, quizzes, tests; call them what you will, they're thought-provoking and give you a different perspective on things. Since there's a lot here, and most of it is good, it's worth bookmarking for repeated visits.
Note added by Jake: SERENDIP was created and is continuously developed by Prof. Paul Grobstein, Brynmawr College and U., Pensylvania.
Name: Ron
Username: saspc@saspc.asn.au
Subject: Dear Jeff
Date: Wed Oct 29 00:33:53 EST 1997
Comments:
Dear Jeff,
Thank you for your kind review and appraisal of serendip, and, of course, your valued contribution. Should your frantic search for next week's logo lead you past this small peninsula of, dare I say, "intelligence", once again, then please accept my heartfelt compliments.
Serendip would indeed seem to be a place for 'people who suspect that mindless quoting, from sources not experienced, would appear to propagate comfort in continued ignorance, without improvement'. While classifying things may not be fun, and often quite misleading, thinking certainly is stimulating.
I must confess that I am a little confused by some of your remarks though. I'm not sure how thinking precludes a thing from being entertaining? Or which parts you think are not 'educational'? - perhaps you mean the colourful clickable banners and logo's which act as trailguides, hopefully to the good bits. It was however nice to know that you hated 'edutainment' enough to incarnate it only twice - and that the revolution was over before even that same paragraph, in your rush to Forget that serendipity is not something that can be provided, though there may be ways to be less-wrong about where it was last bookmarked.
Thanks for your attendance.
Now that that's off my chest, veridical greetings to our more perspicacious denizens. It seems that we have all been out tending to our respective gardens of late which is perhaps how it should be.
Thanks Tania, for delicately highlighting that though HTML may be capable of adding dimension to our writing, fecund promulgations are still the demesne of au courant cognisance.
I'm still trying to find the words to express my gratitude to Paul for making the world 'just a little bit safer' over these past few months. It was indeed a pleasure to learn a little about what you have achieved in your 'absence'. I'm not sure if it was simply the timing of your post, or the detail that you carefully anchored between the lines, or simply the strange influence of a single monkey washing a potato somewhere, but I'm filled with a strong feeling that the tide has again ebbed, and for a while things are just a little "less wrong".
In fact reading the newspaper this morning, it almost feels like deja vu - With the Ivory nest of the 'cold blooded' collapsing top-heavy around their feet, and the small warm blooded creatures, hiding in the undergrowth, ready to feed on their eggs, at the start of our southern spring.
My eyes are a little wider open, even again today, as from the debris of those who Do, Teach, or Administrate, I see a few precursors of those who have quit teaching and begun leading - not by the hand or on the end of a rope, as we have become so used to, and not by the confirmatory glances we expect to comfort us when we look over our shoulders before proceding, but by walking out in front and saying "Hey! I'm over here. Catch me if you can."
Enjoy being patient Paul. If you drop a pebble into a pond it does take some measure of time before the new tide mark can be reliably established. But be hungry also. For we may not go where you send us, but if you search to satisfy your own hunger, curiousity may just compell us to follow, or even to daringly race out in front.
If I've ever learned anything, perhaps I have learned that, It's impossible to teach anyone to walk. All you can do is give them your time and love while they teach themselves.. and perhaps, if you're a good enough walker, catch them, should they stumble.
For those of you to whom many of these words remain meaningless.. well, perhaps you'd best be off. You may have a nest that needs guarding..
Still Here??
<grin>
Thanks for stepping outside the comfort zone with me.
Name: Paul Grobstein
Username: pgrobste@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Patience and ...
Date: Sun Nov 2 21:25:09 EST 1997
Comments:
"To thine own self be true
And it must follow as the night the day
Thou canst not be false to any man (or woman) ..."
Thanks Ron. Thanks, Jeff (and Jake). We'll all keep trying ("was created and is continuously developed by Paul Grobstein, AMONG OTHERS"), outside our comfort zones, among friends.
Forum improvements, including pop-up windows, will be in place (at last) tomorrow. Bogdan and I are just putting some polish on. In the meanwhile, visit , if you haven't yet. And meet a new Serendipian, Antonio Preti, who has there a piece called The Gift of Saturn: Creatiivity and Psychopathology. Turns out Jake is not the only wanted interested in Janusian thinking.
Next word from Bogdan. Hope everyone likes the improvements (yeah, yeah, keep the suggestions coming).
Name: Bogdan Butoi
Username: bbutoi@serendip.brynmawr.edu
Subject: Finally
Date: Mon Nov 3 16:23:35 EST 1997
Comments:
My dear friends, (any friend of Serendip is my friend)
After a long and painful labor, the new posting server was born, error free (I hope :) ). The two doctors (Paul and I) tried to transform the new born into a smart and handsome kid. So here it is, waiting for your input. It is smart enough to tell you (if you ask) how your posting will look before ... you will post the message, so you can go back and fix any HTML tag (yeah, it knows HTML too).
So, what are you expecting for? Go and try it!
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (I)
Date: Tue Nov 4 01:33:10 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username:
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (II)
Date: Tue Nov 4 15:41:02 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (III)
Date: Wed Nov 5 15:28:22 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Tania Jacob
Username: jacob@net1.nw.com.au
Subject: DREAMS
Date: Thu Nov 6 06:24:33 EST 1997
Comments:
Hi everyone. I see you're still on the topic of dreams. I have just had an interesting experience with one. I tried out a 'dream controler' belonging to a friend. It monitors your eye movement and 'wakes you up' in the middle of a dream so that you have complete control over your actions in the dream. Can anyone explain exactly how it works? By the way, the dream was about a computer game I often play. I was living it (if you know what i mean).
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (IIIb)
Date: Sun Nov 9 14:33:24 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Frank Mirer
Username: uawhs@earthlink.net
Subject: Prisoner's Dilemma
Date: Mon Nov 10 11:39:58 EST 1997
Comments:
I am looking for a Windows version of Prisoner's Dilemma to run on a laptop. I need this for a lecture demonstration of cooperation vs. competition in labor relations. The notion would be to have students in an adult ed setting play against the computer with a pre programmed strategy, essentially the same as that now on this website. Helpful features would be a leader board, the ability to capture demographics of the players, number of games played by the player (learning effect). I would be happy to share the accumulated results of the games.
This would be the equivalent of the Demming "Red Bead" demonstration.
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (IV)
Date: Tue Nov 11 16:45:41 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (V)
Date: Thu Nov 13 05:14:40 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (VI)
Date: Sun Nov 16 16:02:42 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il.
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (VII)
Date: Mon Nov 17 15:27:54 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (VIII)
Date: Wed Nov 19 16:43:36 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (IX)
Date: Thu Nov 20 16:04:08 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis,MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il<
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (X)
Date: Sat Nov 22 17:47:56 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Jacob Ghitis,MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (XI)
Date: Sun Nov 23 16:29:58 EST 1997
Comments:
The text is available in Serendipia
Name: Ron
Username: ex-pired <forced grin>
Subject:
Date: Mon Nov 24 06:23:14 EST 1997
Comments:
Dearest Friends,
I have much that I still wish to share with you all, but for the moment it must first be GoodBye. Due to events outside of my control (well.. not really OUT of my control, but I do hate to control things with a baseball bat), any Personal email sent to saspc@saspc.asn.au will no longer be received by me.
Though I must admit that I do feel some sense of grief over the decisions that in all likelyhood will end my association with the "Official" SASPC website, I must also say that I am feeling somewhat aroused by the prospect, if you can ignore the grossest sense of that word. For this is sort of a death for me, or at least for a part of me, and the Phoenix that now has the opportunity to arise will certainly be greater than the substance from which it was birthed.
But then this is all simply intention. Though pieces of the future may seem clearly visible, the complete jigsaw picture is still far from complete.
It has been fun, and it has been educational, but some part of me feels that the original direction or even purpose would seem to have been somehow forgotton in the confusion of trivial concerns. Perhaps that is the common precursor that signals the decline of all things that have served their useful life, literal or symbolic.
So I will Grieve, and I will Reflect, and in all likelyhood I will be Back. Perhaps with a new page free from the shackles of 'you can't say that, I need their money' and free from a code of ethics that suggests continual vigilance of standards, while carefully guarding the 'professional reputation' (read: Commercial Interests) of those who no longer meet them. A page perhaps with the freedom to look at where we have got it wrong, openly and honestly, not in a negative way, but in a way conducive to encouraging simple awareness. Perhaps a page where I can show what I've learned and let others show me what I've still to learn. Though it goes against most normal sensibilities, blindly stating "Everything's Alright." seldom indicates clear ways in which to grow.
But perhaps I'll be absent for a while. I've learned that it's OK to win. Though it is an oxymoron to win at all costs. Real Winning is much more subtle than that. If the proof of overall 'least wrongness' is success in competition, then winning by superior performance is indeed a simple test. A test I intend to put to good use for a while.
For those of you to whom I have promised to write, consider me not absent but merely gathering subject material. Our paths will cross again.
Until then: Make every action well considered, even if the action comes first.
Name: Ron
Username: ron@lesswrong.thanIwasyesterday.grin
Subject:
Date: Mon Nov 24 06:57:36 EST 1997
Comments:
ps. the new Forum interface is excellent, maximum kudos to all involved.
Hope to be back soon to proudly proclaim "I am a Wanker" simply because that's less wrong than being a Lier.
My love to you All.
Name: Jake
Username:
Subject: Keep in touch!
Date: Mon Nov 24 17:13:30 EST 1997
Comments:
Ron, I just saw your post. Take your time. What is a 'wanker' and what a 'lier?' Get a flat rate and a server with ISDN. I haven't heard of Paul in spite of e-mails. I'll return to publishing "The Game of Analogies" which I left soon at the beginning. I am now quite proficient in HTLM and have my own handy Editor for Postings. With the new checking facility before posting it becomes easy.
As far as I understand, this site has no considerations distinct to teaching and learning to think and enjoying it. No financial or political strictures. I'd say that the leisurely walk along this path has to do with the lack of such incentives. You well know that not many people consider thinking a self-rewarding pursuit. I intend to continue here as long as I believe that I have something to contribute. I have enjoyed advancing my thinking abilities and therefore I am very obliged to Paul. I have found the correspondence with you very rewarding too.
Keep in touch!
Jake
Name: Paul Grobstein
Username: pgrobste@brynmawr.edu
Subject: To Ron: Come home ...
Date: Wed Nov 26 10:34:24 EST 1997
Comments:
Suspected something was bubbling since you hadn't written in a while. "...not absent but merely gathering subject material", of course. But also a hug for whatever blew up with SASPC (the same hug I always want when I have to accept something is not going to get "less wrong" enough, and its time to move on). And a wish to have you back ... and, in the meanwhile to have a way to be in touch. Let us know where you are, and what we can do to help bring you home, whenever you're ready to come. "Everything's ok", of course not. But, "a page ... with the freedom to look at where we have got it wrong ... in a way conducive to encouraging simple awareness", where we can learn from you and you from us? Of course. Particularly since you have already helped make it so for all of us.
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username: ghitis@star.net.il
Subject: DIVORCE (XII)
Date: Wed Dec 10 13:41:44 EST 1997
Comments:
DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS (XII)
It had been forced to pull a curtain in front of itself, yet it was not
a simple remnant of a glorious past. Although being relegated to a
subservient role during the Dark Ages of humanity, it saw its
renaissance as men with sensitive minds, fingers and other tactile
organs brought it back to the fore and had its full rights restored.
Why should the clitoris be sensitive at all? It doesn't serve any
reproductive function or purpose, does it? And if it is so sensitive
(unless psychopathically thwarted), why is it so awkwardly misplaced?
Why is deliberate foreplay required to bring it in full swing? Jake's
answers to all these poignant questions were right to the point:
Evolution--through male preponderance resulting from a quirk of
mutational deletion--forced woman to evolve as she did. Her phallus
became unimportant, in the same way as many of her human rights were
trampled. The rediscovery of the sensibility of the clitoris went hand
in hand with the rebellion of woman, as she demanded equity as a human
being.
Now the terrible, frightening conclusion that Jake drew out of his
'discovery' was that since man and woman do not represent basically
opposite but essentially different sexes, there exist no
reasons for them to empathize and 'understand' each other. As the saying
goes, "Love is woman's world, while the world is man's love." There is a
huge gap between the two sexes: woman is a complete being since
she retained both original sexual attributes, even though the masculine
ones underwent evolutionary atrophy. Women tend to be self-sufficient;
they brave much better being widowed and alone. They love on a higher
emotional plane, since physically they feel complete. Men,
contrastingly, are defective, incomplete beings. They keep
looking in vain for their missing, forever lost, feminine complement.
That's why they tend to be inconstant and promiscuous. They are fated to
love on a more physical level; they are prone to break down when
abandoned or widowed.
No wonder men and women so utterly fail in their mutual transactions.
They cannot fulfill each other; they are not authentically
complementary. The deepening erosion of inter-sex cohesion seems to bear
witness to the fallacy inherent in considering man and woman as
Nature's two sides of a finely crafted symmetrical sexual balance, Jake
concluded.
I do not know how all these 'theories' influenced my way of thinking, my
dear friend. I've finished writing these memories of mine, and I am
still married to Jake. Perhaps I just got used to him and his
foolishness. But I do not wish to close on a bleak note. Therefore, I
shall offer my own vision of a bright future, why not?
So, bear with me, please! OK, here I go!
The Jews unique history is enigmatic. Why were they dispersed for so
many centuries? And why have they known so little peace during the
millennia--even after returning to their ancestral land? Why do so many
genetic diseases beset the Jews, as if their chromosomes bore a special
susceptibility to mutations?
The fire of Prometheus symbolizes the fire of love, and it betokens the
dawn of civilization; but... (Zeus knew), it also heralds the fire of
nuclear conflagration. The specter of such apocalyptic vision enshrouds
our daily existence.
Neuroses nowadays are not so much tinged with repressed sexual or
aggressive Oedipal urges, nor with narcissistic, pre-Oedipal battering
of the self. No, they are mostly existential neuroses, a reflection of
the realization that humanity is inexorably approaching the final
cataclysm. Yet there is no such thing as 'final' in the relentless march
of humankind. There is only the second coming of the Holocaust.
Thus my vision is: As the sophisticated nuclear weapons wreak havoc upon
Earth, their irradiation will cause deletional mutations in one of the
two germinal X chromosomes of a Jewish woman. She will give birth to a
female creature lacking all hitherto remnant masculine attributes.
This creature will grow up to metamorphose into a real Woman, truly
antithetical to Man and affectively complementing him. She will be able
to empathize with him and he with her. Like the two poles of a magnet.
>From the ashes of Earth destroyed shall arise the phoenix of True
Love...
I feel reluctant to add: "What a boring world it shall be!" since I was
actually meaning to offer an optimistic outlook. Besides, I was born in
the age of illusion and self-delusion. Therefore, I desire that the last
word of my memoirs be love...
But is it true that only when you can truly say, "I love you
bitch," or "I love you, sonavabitch," that you truly love?"
END OF DIVORCE AND THE UNCONSCIOUS
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject:
Date: Wed Dec 10 16:38:01 EST 1997
Comments:
TESTING for the 5th time....
Name: Jacob Ghitis, MD
Username:
Subject: ANALOGIES
Date: Mon Dec 15 16:52:17 EST 1997
Comments:
THE GAME OF ANALOGIES has been restarted at
COMPLEXITY.
Name: Jacob Ghitis
Username:
Subject: SERENDIP
Date: Mon Dec 22 16:07:58 EST 1997
Comments:
ABOUT...SERENDIP
Serendip endeavors to serve as an interface between Science, Philosophy and the Layman. Its platform is composed of Brain, Mind and Thinking. Its Medium is the Internet.
Its symbol, a circle containing a spanning triangle containing an inverted spanning triangle.
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