Women, Sport, and Film Course
Cosponsored by Athletics and Physical Education at Bryn Mawr College
and the Exercise and Sports Studies Department at Smith College, with
support from the Center for Science In Society at Bryn Mawr College and the
Serendip website.
WEEK 3 - FORUM 4
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: WEEK 3 questions
Date: 2003-02-16 16:10:21
Message Id: 4624
Comments:
The class at Smith, Bryn Mawr and Wesleyan have viewed a few different films--all films have themes that connect to the larger questions of women and sport. Please respond to the questions based upon the films you have watched. Feel free to comment on the themes that link all of our classes together in the broader conversation about women, sport, Title IX, gender etc. Enjoy the conversation!!
1. What is the cultural ideal displayed by the main characters in each film? What norms/ideals of the time, do the characters challenge and expand?
2. What is the relationship between the main characters in the films and their message about women and sport? Has it had an impact on what is happening in women's sport today? How does it effect womne who are not engaged in sport?
3. How does the media - print - video/movie - web - portary women and sport? Is it helpful?
Name: Missie
Username: mtidwell@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-18 10:15:22
Message Id: 4653
Comments:
The main character in Love and Basketball challenges the inequality of men and women in sport. The film was pretty obvious in its goal, but it rang with truth. Monica is a passionate athlete, like Velvet in National Velvet. When she gets upset, she shows it, just like a man would...but her temper is held against her because she is a woman. The movie deals with the sacrifices she has to make because of her love of basketball, sacrifices she shoudln't have to make, such as the loss of her boyfriend, the loss of her home, the loss of a strong relationship with her mother who can't understand her love. The movie deals with a lot of the issues that we have been discussing in class and centralizes some very important aspects of being a woman athlete.
Name: Anneliese Zimmerman
Username: azimmerm@brynmawr.edu
Subject: week 3 questions
Date: 2003-02-18 14:28:30
Message Id: 4655
Comments:
I think the relationship between the velvet and monica and their mothers is very interesting. Both mothers seem to have had big dreams/accomplishments in their lives that they set aside to become housewives and mothers. They are both strong women and their daughters are also strong because of this. Although in "National Velvet", I feel like Velvet's mother was more encouraging and supportive of Velvet's dreams and ambitions than Monica's mother. I think Monica's mother was not as openly supportive because part of her was jealous of Monica and her ability to break barriers and become the woman her mother always wished she could be. I think that every generation of women, to some degree, want their daughters to accomplish more than they did and to continue to break down gender barriers and crash through glass ceilings, as displayed in both of these films.
Name: Rianna
Username: Anonymous
Subject: mothers
Date: 2003-02-18 16:23:46
Message Id: 4661
Comments:
I think Anneliese stated well the situation between Velvet and her mother and Monica and her mother. I felt more for Monica's mother--she seemed trapped in her time and marriage. Monica was the more interesting character to me. However, I don't think her sacrifices were all that different from those that other woman make in their career choices. I have to say that the ending of the film was a bit bizarre. Was there really a need for her to give up basketball just to marry and breed? Couldn't a balance have been found?
Name: Anneliese Zimmerman
Username: azimmerm@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Week 3 question--2
Date: 2003-02-19 18:39:54
Message Id: 4678
Comments:
I think that Monica was able to balance both family and her dream in the movie "Love and Basketball". I mean she was able to marry the man she loved, have a family and still play for the WNBA. She didn't have to give up her dream, in order to have a family as well.
Name: Claire Mahler
Username: cmahler@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-19 23:48:43
Message Id: 4692
Comments:
In class, we brought up the question of whether Velvet was "male" "female" or "gender neutral." Personally, I felt that she was still feminine despite having strong dreams, but that's perhaps slightly beside the point. Along with that statement follows another, that is, perhaps because of her age, her passion for sport and wish to succeed she was a more readily accepted athlete. Though in the film she was still disqualified, the audience was won over by the fiery, yet adorable young girl. Would an older female solicit the same reaction? Probably not. Monica was not portrayed as such a glamorous character in many ways: her strong temper flared up on many occasions, she was shown just as sweaty as any other athlete, and she was not cheered on as strongly by her role model(s).
Both films push for a more equalized sporting arena, yet I felt that National Velvet managed to keep the female protagonist within the cultural bounds (her mother's statement that this one instance must last her whole life and that it was time to move on). Monica on the other hand managed to have a family and still persue her love of sport at an older age, a less-often explored path of life.
Name: Claire Mahler
Username: cmahler@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 00:02:30
Message Id: 4693
Comments:
In reading other postings (I hope I've been posting in the right section!) many comments brought various issues to light, issues which gravely need to be discussed before true equality can be reached. If we don't fully understand the problem [of differences], how can it be fixed? One comment that particularly struck me was that of Monika Le. She made the point that in film, nearly all female athletes are portrayed as tomboys. I had never conciously realized this (probably assuming that it was a good thing that 'the masses' were instucted that being a tomboy is not intrinsicly a bad thing). I think that there are still certain cultural bounds constructed in such a way that if one edge stretches, the other side constricts to compensate; the mentality that if a woman is an accomplished athlete, she must necessarily be less of a woman.
We've come so far yet have so far to go.
Name: Amy
Username: astern@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 09:56:42
Message Id: 4698
Comments:
I think it's telling that, at least for me, Love and Basketball was a much more realistic film. National Velvet showed Velvet fighting to reach her potential, but the gender bias was significantly less obvious, and significantly less relevant to life today, than that of Monica. The IMDB said that the writer herself was a college basketball player, which must have had a profound effect.
Name: Emily Hanson
Username: ehanson@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Working Women
Date: 2003-02-20 14:14:47
Message Id: 4703
Comments:
I think the movie Love and Basketball poses an interesting question that transcends the concept of women and sports to the idea of working-women in a man's world. In examining the female characters in the movie we are shown different ideals of what women are supposed to value. Monica's mother is a stay-at-home mom who gave up a career in catering to take care of her family. Monica believes this is a weakness and looks down on her mother for "not standing up for herself". However, Monica's mother disapproves of her daughter's dress and attitude, believing that she isn't acting like a lady. Later in the movie Monica herself has to make the choice between a relationship with Quincy and her basketball career. Unlike her mother she makes the choice to follow her dreams. In the end, though, Monica realizes that playing basketball isn't as fulfilling without Quincy in her life.
I think Monica's relationship with her mother and Quincy reveals a dilemma that many working mothers face today. Today women are freer to pursue a career and most continue to work while their children are growing up. However, they often face the dilemma of balancing their career with their family, a problem that few men encounter. In the past few corporations have done anything to ease the burden of working mothers that keep them from competing with their male colleagues on an equal footing. Society is changing however. More and more often companies are offering to help with childcare, some even providing themselves on site. As society becomes more conscious of the problems faced by working mothers fewer will face the kind of dilemma Monica's mother faced.
Name: Christina
Username: crivera@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Media Portrayal of Women
Date: 2003-02-20 15:55:55
Message Id: 4705
Comments:
In terms of portraying women in sport in the media, we definitely have come a long way in getting some media coverage, but women are never portrayed as athletes in their sports medium, but continually "feminized" into a heterosexual feminine cultural ideal of society.
Name: johanna
Username: jsegal@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Media Portrayal of Women
Date: 2003-02-20 16:02:47
Message Id: 4706
Comments:
I think that Christina is right, women have come far in that they can actively participate in sports but are still not showen while playing their respective sport. It is a shame that society wishes to see women as mothers or in other traditional female roles. It would be very refreshing to see a woman while playing her sport. I do think that women's tennis does get a lot of good coverage but I am disappointed in the coverage that anna K. gets because she is not a top player.
Name: Christina
Username: crivera@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Media Portrayal of Women
Date: 2003-02-20 16:08:32
Message Id: 4708
Comments:
I agree with Johanna's point that women's tennis is portrayed positively with the exception of Anna K. and I would propose to add another positive portrayal of women in sport and the media. Being a former figure-skater who trained for 15 years, the sport is represented well in the media. However, there is definitely an ultra-feminine non-sport stigma attached to figure-skating while most do not know how much hard work and dedication it takes to execute it.
Name: johanna
Username: jsegal@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Media Portrayal of Women
Date: 2003-02-20 16:12:49
Message Id: 4709
Comments:
I thought that "National Velvet" was a revolutionary movie, although very unrealistic it gave girls the idea that they too could play sports. It was my mother's second movie, and it inspired her to take up tennis, a sport she still actively plays. I did think that "Love and Basketball" was a good film and showed the tension between men and women athletes and the conflict that much of the public feels in accepting women as athletes. It is important to have women athletes as role models.
Name: Jackie
Username: jpiltch@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Mothers and Sports
Date: 2003-02-20 16:19:08
Message Id: 4711
Comments:
The mother and daughter relationship in Love and Basketball interests me, because the film wants to portray a mother who does not understand the sports and competitive nature of her second daughter. Then, at the end of the film, the mother begins to appreciate her daughter's drive to succeed, and tells her to apply it to her need for love. But, what I failed to recognize until much later is that the mother herself had elements of spirit and drive in her personality all along, in her decision to raise two daughters instead of pursuing a career, and her acknowledgment that her daughter should compete for love.
Name: Katherine
Username: kquah@brynmawr.edu
Subject: week 3
Date: 2003-02-20 18:01:15
Message Id: 4715
Comments:
I thought it was interesting to see the difference between the characters in Love and Basketball, as far as how much they were supported by their families, the outside world, etc. While Monica had to leave the country in order to pursue her dream, Quincy was able to play in the NBA to huge crowds. Monica only had small gyms and smaller crowds. Quincy's family is also seen as being more supportive of their son's passion for basketball. I think the movie showed the contrast in the support that is given to men and women's basketball that still exists today--how many people actually watch the WNBA as compared to the NBA?
Name: mahnoor
Username: mahmed@brynmawr.edu
Subject: having it all
Date: 2003-02-20 18:33:22
Message Id: 4720
Comments:
Love and Basketball portrayed a woman's struggle to be accomplished in what she wanted (basketball)- and still be the girlfriend of an accomplished boyfriend in the same sport. Though it added to the melodramatic quality of the movie, I was disappointed that she came back to the U.S. only for her boyfriend. Her family she didn't miss so much and there is no mention of her friends in this movie. Though both of them cannot play basketball because they have lost the inspiration behind it, the movie ponders for half an hour on how she has lost her interest and only briefly touches on how it is the same for him as well. That seemed to make it more necessary for women to follow their love as opposed to their dreams, and created a competition between the two in the first place. In the end, she gets to love and play basketball. The fact that she doesn't have to choose sets it apart from national velvet, where Liz Taylor has to compartmentalize her life according to her age and expected role at that point in her life.
Name: mahnoor
Username: mahmed@brynmawr.edu
Subject: ideals
Date: 2003-02-20 18:45:16
Message Id: 4725
Comments:
National Velvet was interesting in its representation of feminity, women's roles and the liberty allowed to a woman pursuing sports. I was impressed that velvet's mother allowed her to pursue a seemingly impossible goal. However, the fact that one big achievement is all there is to women and sports showed that women were defined by their responsibilities and not their dreams. Love and Basketball portrays a put-together, loves-to-cook-for-the-family mother who till the very end maintains that she gave up her dreams to be a mother and is proud to have done that. Even though there is some resolution between the different ideals of feminine behavior between the mother and the daughter, velvet complies whereas the lead in love and basketball finds a balance and compromises.
Name: Melissa Teicher
Username: mteicher@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 18:59:42
Message Id: 4729
Comments:
Today, media portrays women as professional athletes that are competing in a variety of sports, much like men. Women are shown in commercials running, swimming, drinking gatorade, and wearing nike. I feel that women athletes have taken a huge step in media in that they are respected just as men athletes, and they are seen as professionals, role models, and heroes. Women athletes are on posters, on billboards, and on cereal boxes. This kind of positive media is very helpful in that it encourages more of the world to follow women's sports. For instance, the whole world watched when the women won the Olympic cup in soccer. Without this positive media, the world would not have cared.
Name: Rianna
Username: Anonymous
Subject: Drive and Media
Date: 2003-02-20 19:03:10
Message Id: 4730
Comments:
I agree with Jackie's point concerning the similaries between Monica and her mother. Concerning media portrayal and women, a friend informed me (since I don't watch commercial TV because of its vapid content)of a Gatorade commercial with Michael Jordan and Mia Hamm wherein they were competing with each other at many different sports and had a pretty even turn out. If I understand correctly, the sexes were portrayed as equal without any extra sexualizing going on.
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Week 4 Questions
Date: 2003-02-22 09:35:19
Message Id: 4750
Comments:
Please answer one of the three questions:
1. Is it advancement for women in sport, that the main character is the first woman on the cover of SURFING magazine? Why or why not?
2. (Same as week #1) What is the cultural ideal of women in sport? And how does it differ from men?
3. How does this film stereotype the main and supporting characters in this film?
Name: Annie
Username: acoppock@smith.edu
Subject: video thoughts.....
Date: 2003-02-22 12:14:56
Message Id: 4756
Comments:
Love and Basketball really got my wheels turning. First of all, the struggles that Monica and other female ball players faced in the movie are only about ten years old. Only ten to fifteen years ago, girls basketball was much different than it is today. In class we talked briefly about how what is considered "normal" in sport is often the boys game. For example, in Love and Basketball, Monica gets taken out of the game because she is playing too agressivly, however, in boys ball, it is appropriate to play rough.
Toward the end of the movie Monica was questioning whether or not she still truly loved basketball. I think there comes a time in every good athletes life when you need to make the decision about how far you really want to go in your sport. For Monica, she started playing ball on her driveway when she was young, and ended up in the WNBA. I was happy to see her playing one-on-one with Quincy at the end, because it showed that she still loved ball for the "love of the game".
As for the media portrayal of Monica as an athlete in the movie, I think the producer did a pretty good job. Some things I thought that they could have done better was her playing in her sports bra, however I thought that she was portrayed as strong, and not necessarly sexy. Her attitude on the court was definitly not that of your typical female girl player!
Name:
Username: mgentry@smith.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-23 15:34:58
Message Id: 4762
Comments:
While "Love and Basketball" is a highly engaging film, I find it very hard to accept this film as a social commentary, especially regarding the evolution of women's sport. Yes, the film did address the dichotomy that exists between male and female sport. For example, while we see Monica and her USC teammates play on a court that resembles a high school gymnasium, we see their male counterparts played in a well-equipped arena. I applaud this use of imagery. However, the idealistic ending of the film stands against what the film sought to establish for two hours: that male and female sport are two separate entities. The portrayal of Monica as star WNBA point guard, wife, and new mother is a far too unrealistic ending for a film that skillfully sheds light on the wall that divides men's and women's athletics. I understand that filmgoers crave "happily ever after" endings, but I feel that the filmmakers could have given the spectator a happy ending without compromising the overall integrity of the film.
This is an entirely different point, and I am curious as to how others in this forum feel on the following topic. I found the portrayal of Q's father in "Love and Basketball" film troubling. Why is it that he, an African-American athlete, must be portrayed as a liar and adulterer? Is this for the sake of the storyline, or is it symptomatic of how American society views African-American male athletes? I think that the latter is true. I feel that are so inundated with images of African-American athletes as aggressors, criminals, adulterers etc. that we can see them as nothing else. How often do we read a headline that extols the virtues of a well-mannered African-American athlete? I can scarcely recall reading such an article. The image of a self-controlled and socially-aware African-American male athlete stands in contrast to the characteristics that we innately associate with the African-American male athlete, so much so that any of us (i.e., the writers et al. of "Love and Basketball) are unable to project such an image. What do you think?
Name:
Username: sshomste@smith.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-23 20:53:37
Message Id: 4770
Comments:
In response to the above comment, I was equally disturbed by the portrayl of African American Men in this film. Both the characters of Quincy and his father are seen being unfaithful to their partners as if this is some behavior displayed by all African American Men.
On a positive note, although the ending of the film was in many ways "too good to be true" and idealistic, I was pleased with the fact that ultimately, it was Monica who succeeded professionally in Basketball and not Quincy who was cheering on the sidelines for her.
Name: Anneliese Zimmerman
Username: azimmerm@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Week 4 questions
Date: 2003-02-23 21:05:19
Message Id: 4772
Comments:
I think that having the main character on the cover of SURF magazine really wasn't the best idea if this film was trying to be about women impowerment, but it did follow the ideals of our society today. I mean the fact that she was a VERY attractive women is probably one of the main reasons she was put on the cover. There were several more talented surfers who won a lot more competitions than the main character who were probably considered in our society not as attractive that deserved to be on the cover before she did. Also, the caption "so and so (i forget her name) knows how to lay down the pipe" is a bit sexual in its conotation which goes right along with her attractiveness. Also, who wears a string bikini while they surf?