Women, Sport, and Film Course
Cosponsored by Athletics and Physical Education at Bryn Mawr College
and the Exercise and Sports Studies Department at Smith College, with
support from the Center for Science In Society at Bryn Mawr College and the
Serendip website.
WEEK 3 - FORUM 3
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: WEEK 3 questions
Date: 2003-02-16 16:10:21
Message Id: 4624
Comments:
The class at Smith, Bryn Mawr and Wesleyan have viewed a few different films--all films have themes that connect to the larger questions of women and sport. Please respond to the questions based upon the films you have watched. Feel free to comment on the themes that link all of our classes together in the broader conversation about women, sport, Title IX, gender etc. Enjoy the conversation!!
1. What is the cultural ideal displayed by the main characters in each film? What norms/ideals of the time, do the characters challenge and expand?
2. What is the relationship between the main characters in the films and their message about women and sport? Has it had an impact on what is happening in women's sport today? How does it effect womne who are not engaged in sport?
3. How does the media - print - video/movie - web - portary women and sport? Is it helpful?
Name: Madeleine Karpel
Username: mkarpel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball.
Date: 2003-02-17 13:45:25
Message Id: 4637
Comments:
In regards to the different movies' portrayals of women and sports, one thing that I liked about Love and Basketball was that the main female character, Monica, had a clear personality, both within and outside of the context of basketball. While she was clearly a classy, tough, intelligent, dedicated and lovely basketball player, she was also clearly a classy, tough, intelligent, dedicated and lovely person. One flaw that I felt National Velvet allowed itself was that Velvet seemed like a sweet child, but if you took the Horse-obsession out of her personality, I would have had no idea what she'd be like. With Monica, if basketball were removed, I could imagine her pursuing almost any occupation, athletic or not, with the same passion and fervor.
I think that's important, because frequently, the media attempts to construct personality, or a persona, for female athletes. This is understandably poor taste; these women all already have strong personalities and are real people. By clearly showing a real woman, who is just as much as real athlete, Love and Basketball achieves a rare quality.
Name: Richard Lee
Username: rjlee@wesleyan.edu
Subject: L & B
Date: 2003-02-18 17:12:02
Message Id: 4664
Comments:
I really enjoyed Love and Basketball and thought it did a great job of portraying Monica as a strong woman. The antithesis of this movie would probably be the terrible She's All That, where the "geeky" Rachel Leigh Cook turns into the school's prom queen. The message of that movie is that you need to be beautiful and wear make-up in order to be happy. On the other hand, the only time we ever see Monica dressed up is for her senior prom, where she looked better than any of the other "popular" girls. Still, I think she looked better in a t-shirt and ponytail than she did wearing a dress and lipstick. It was also nice to see her running around the court, sweating, and exerting herself. In the gym, we see her bench-pressing, which is generally thought of as one of the most masculine exercises. I remember going to the Wesleyan gym last semester and seeing, for the first time (not that I go very often), a girl bench-pressing. I was surprised, but it was great to see a girl performing a particularly masculine exercise.
Monica's mom is also an interesting character. We initially see her as just a weak, submissive housewife, which she is to some extent. But after her argument with Monica, we see a different side of her. She took pride in caring and loving for her family. Women can be strong and independent as housewives, just as much as basketball players. My only problem with the movie was the ending. The implication was that basketball didn't mean anything for Monica without her man. Basketball was such an important part of her life and it seems ridiculous that this strong-willed woman lost her love for the game when she lost her man.
Name: natalie
Username: nmerrill@brynmawr.edu
Subject: love and basketball
Date: 2003-02-18 19:26:05
Message Id: 4665
Comments:
I had never seen love and basketball and really didn't expect a film dealing with such complicated issues as women in sports. It was not just concerned with a love story, but the story of a woman struggling with an athletic passion and her trying to balance that with her role as a woman or specifically, as a mate of an athletic man. She is expected to not exceed his abilities because it is naturally assumed that he is better at basketball. Her athletic talent and aspirations should come secondary to his. Contrary to many films dealing with women's issues, this one ended on a good note, with the man supporting the woman and not the woman subordinating herself to the man. This film was thought provoking and intelligent, showing many facets of female athleticism. It was great that we could watch it for this class, though its too bad we can't discuss it outside of the online forum. I'll be interested to read other posts.
Name: Liz Marcus
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-19 07:53:17
Message Id: 4669
Comments:
It was great contrasting National Velvet with Love and Bassketball since they both portray women in sport, but in two very different lights. The way they were portrayed were very appropriate for the times they were produced. In National Velvet, Velvet is a strong women/girl who dares to go against the norm by competing in the horse race. However, the support of her mother helped her greatly in getting there. This can cause viewers to see the mother as also a main figure in Velvet's success. However, Monica, in Love and Basketball, was on her own in forging the path to athletics. It is a modern image of what many girls/women experience when they go into athletics. Therefore, Velvet takes the submissive athlete role in many ways while Monica is a "rebel" for wanting to play basketball.
Name: Angela Murphy
Username: bunki8@hotmail.com
Subject: Question #3
Date: 2003-02-19 17:46:42
Message Id: 4675
Comments:
Example
Both of these links are from Sports Illustrated. In the first example, click on a link to a man and you will find many pictures of him in action or participating in the sport. Click on a women's link and you will find a couple of action shots as well as a few shots of her family, and maybe her boyfriend. Right..
So, how does the media portray women in sports. Well, they portray them as feminine, overly. "Don't want to portray them as only having sport. Of course they have a family! Look, look, there's her BOYfriend". Please. Women in sports are portrayed in a light to be sure to remind you that they don't put all their time into sports, that the do have relationships. With men, they don't. You pick up a SI to see how the teams are doing and to see the best players. You don't pick one up to see who your favorite female star is dating, or how her kids are doing in school. I beieve that, though they are actually showing women in sports magazines, which is better than before, it's still a hinderence to the image.
Name: natalie
Username: nmerrill@brynmawr.edu
Subject: love and basketball, 2
Date: 2003-02-19 21:07:48
Message Id: 4685
Comments:
?What is the relationship between the main characters in the films and their message about women and sport? Has it had an impact on what is happening in women's sport today? How does it effect womne who are not engaged in sport?
One interesting part of this film I noticed, in relation to this question, is its portrayl of women's basketball as a much smaller institution compared to the men's superstructural basketball industry. Men have the benefit of an established sport, in which they can rely on set fans and revenues as well as endorcements and sponsorships. With Title 9, women's basketball organizations began to come together and attempt to imitate the success of men's basketball. Unfortunatley, we didn't get an organization such as the WNBA to compete with the NBA untill fairly recently. Also unfortunatley, the base of fans and support for the WNBA is severely inferior to that of the men's NBA. Both in terms of viewership interested and enterprise sponsorship they are severely lacking in comparison. However, I think at this point in time, the opportunity for the WNBA to grow and compete equally with the NBA is in place. What is lacking at this monent is a public support for the WNBA. Society doesn't value its female baskeball players like it does their male counterparts. Men's basketball is seen as more competitive and therefore far more interesting. I wonder what would have to change in society in order for there to be a peaked or equalled interest in women's basketball...
Name: Jennifer Levine
Username: jalevine@wesleyan.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-19 22:52:43
Message Id: 4687
Comments:
1. What is the cultural ideal displayed by the main characters in each film? What norms/ideals of the time, do the characters challenge and expand?
In the film, Love and Basketball, the main characters, Monica and Quincy, mature over the years and face challenges that they must overcome. As a young girl, Monica possesses basketball talents. When she to play with the boys they agree because she dresses like a boy and was wearing a hat. Quincy and the other little boys could not believe that a girl could play ball. She challenged the idea that a girl can play sports and possibly even better than a boy. The boys made fun of her saying that she was weird or a "dog" for not molding into the conventional little girl in a dress role. As Monica grows older she continues to exhibit masculine characteristics in terms of her love of the sport. Due to her cut, muscular and lean body, she receives comments that she is a tom-boy. Her mother, who does not give her approval and support, makes a comment to Monica about how I wish you would grow out of the stage. This shows disapproval for the course in sports Monica has chosen to take. She excels on the court, but like any player shows emotion when a bad call is made. Her frustration and anger at the official is considered unladylike however, if it was a man giving his opinion, by society it would be considered appropriate. This is unfair. These double standards should not exist in sports. Monica continues to challenge the ideals of the time by continuing to play basketball after college on European teams. She will not admit that this is the end of her career. Her love of basketball and her hard work and perseverance pays off and eventually she makes it to the WNBA. It sends out a message to female athletes to work hard and follow ones' instincts and dreams.
Quincy growing up at times had societal ideals for women in sport as well as men. As a little boy, he was like girls can't play ball, and was thoroughly surprised when Monica showed up with skills. To him it was unfathomable that a girl can play ball. Over time, he recognizes that girls can play sports. This idea is one he accepts, even though the rest of society might not be in accord. He is proud of Monica for what she has accomplished, although he may not admit it out loud. However, Quincy continues to fall into the social norms of a man in sports. He is recognized and idolized for his talents. The movie also shows the emphasis of male sports in the world. At USC the men's basketball team plays in an arena, there is an enormous spectator turn out and the event is highly publicized and even televised. The women's team plays in a small gym, for a small crowd, which was highly unpublicized. It demonstrates that male sports sell and that people do not take female sports seriously enough to support it to that great extent. During his college career, Quincy decides that he wants to go professional. It is acceptable that an athlete with great talent can quit school and be drafted for the NBA. This is due to the fact that people believe the NBA is a respectable job for a male. If a female was to quit her education in order to further her athletic career, it might be deemed as irresponsible or reckless. Life in the NBA is not as glamorous as Quincy had thought it would be since her tore his ACL. It exemplifies the hard work he needed to put in to elevate himself to the standards that society expected of an NBA player. After triumph and tragedy, love conquers all in basketball.
Name: Liz Marcus
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 07:26:00
Message Id: 4696
Comments:
If you compare the two women protrayed, it can be seen that Velvet sticks more closely to the female stereotype and ideal while Monica challenges the ideals. Although, after talking to others who have seen the movie outside of the class, many of us agreed that we liked Monica's character better and identified with her more. In many ways she is the modern version of what it means to be a female athlete. If Mrs. Brown was mixed into the picture in various degrees, the situation that many of us, as athletes, experienced would be seen. Monica challenges the ideals set forth before her like that girls should wear dresses and not get cut and bruises. This an ideal that seems to be challenged more every day.
Name: Elizabeth Martin
Username: Anonymous
Subject: love and basketball
Date: 2003-02-20 11:24:21
Message Id: 4699
Comments:
Love and Basketball tries to show how being a female athlete might cause difficulties in a woman's personal life. The main character often has to choose between pursuing her dream and being attractive to men, or getting approval from her mother. In the end she is happy with her career because she also has a husband and child. She almost gives up basketball because she says she does not enjoy it anymore, but the real reason seems to be that she feels lonely. The movie gives the message that women still have difficulty choosing between family and career, and that women will not be happy without both these things in their lives. While the male basketball players have women waiting at home for them, and have affairs when they are on tour, the film suggests that it is not possible for female athletes to live this way.
Name: Munira
Username: mlokhand@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-20 12:28:21
Message Id: 4700
Comments:
I really enjoyed watching this movie mainly because I found it to be a well thought out portrayal of two athletes of different sexes yet similar goals, and the paths through which they attempted to achieve them. The charactor of Monica, in particular, was exciting because she wasn't portrayed as someone of only 2 dimension, but as a women with so great a passion for something that it dominated her life. In the beginning of the movie I did get the impression that there was going to be a a differentiation between the two main charactors, and that line would be drawn because of their respective sexes. The male athlete was allowed to be more abbrasive and hot tempered,while the female athlete constantly needed to be in control of her emotions otherwise they would be used against her. The difference I think is that for male athletes, society seems to see their talent first, and then their behavior. Whereas with female athletes, first society needs to be able to see past their behavior in order to finally see their talent. It was important for Monica not to lose her temper on the court in order for people to really begin to recognize her talent.
Name: Elizabeth Martin
Username: Anonymous
Subject: careers in sports
Date: 2003-02-20 14:30:35
Message Id: 4704
Comments:
i find myself thinking about what kind of messages young girls receive from the media about sports. while men's sports are available at almost any time of day, one hardly ever sees women's sports on TV. i know that as a child i was encouraged to play sports, and be on a team, but boys got to look at al these sports heroes. the only women i remember seeing doing a sport on TV were olympic figure skaters, and figure skating is so similar to dance-it's a feminine sport. in love and basketball, monica was determined to be a basketball player because that was the only thing that she was interested in. but she really had to push herself to get what she wanted. even her family encouraged her to try other interests out. quincy, however, had a dad who was a pro-ball player, so it was natural, even expected that he would play, too. i think that this movie really shows that while careers in sports are possible for women, they are encouraged for men.
Name: Sunmin Lee
Username: smlee@bmc.edu
Subject: Comment
Date: 2003-02-20 18:35:51
Message Id: 4721
Comments:
I find Natalie's observation on WNBA interesting. Not only WNBA, it is true that men's league or games are more popular than women's, and I wonder why. It is thought that men's games are more aggressive, dramatic, and powerful, which people seek for in sports. When I really think about it, it is not necessarily true. However, the prejudice is so deeply embeded in the society that people have them without knowing where it came from.
Name:
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 18:48:22
Message Id: 4726
Comments:
2. What is the relationship between the main characters in the films and their message about women and sport? Has it had an impact on what is happening in women's sport today? How does it effect womne who are not engaged in sport?
In "Love and Basketball,"
Name: Sunmin Lee
Username: smlee@bmc.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-20 19:10:19
Message Id: 4732
Comments:
Oops...I hit the enter key accidentally....the anonymous commnet right above is my mistake. Sorry about that.
Since other people focused more on the gender issue within the film, I would like to discuss on how the film portary Monica and Quincy.
In "Love and Basketball," Monica finds herself in a position where she needs to choose between her boyfriend Quincy and basketball. She chooses basketball but loses Quincy instead. I expected that Monica will be criticized for her decison. It is not because I wanted her to be, but that kind of development is usual in the movie. I was surprised, but in a good way. It is interesting how the film does not portray the streotypical gender figure. Rather, the film portrays Monica and Quincy as two atheletes who are trying to find their way in different conditions and expectations.
Name: Madeleine Karpel
Username: mkarpel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-20 22:09:39
Message Id: 4736
Comments:
One other thing that I very much liked about Love and Basketball was the degree to which Monica was presented as a three-dimensional character. In reading the posts above, I saw that some people touched on this, and I just wanted to add that I really liked that. Monica was a woman, and a phenomenal basketball player. She was also nervous, touchy, occaisionally belligerant, sometimes non-communicative, etc. She was a human being, as well as a woman, as well as a basketball player. I think that the world of sports is very slowly coming to accept women as athletes. Once the world of sports starts accepting "flawed" women as athletes (ie, women athletes who aren't physically perfect, charming, and "ladylike"), that will be a real landmark.
Name: Corey Gittus
Username: cgittus@wesleyan.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-20 22:17:30
Message Id: 4737
Comments:
The movie "Love and Basketball" is a great movie that deals with the question of women, sports, and family life. Monica, the main character in "Love and Basketball" is a female athlete throughout her entire life. As a child she was considered a "tom boy" and was always told to behave more like a "girl." However, Monica refused to give up her dream of playing basketball in the pros. She showed a determined spirit despite the hardships of not having support of her mother. Her mother, a stay at home mom, was always trying to make Monica more of a girl; she states, " I just want you to enjoy being beautiful." While in college she also faced pressure from her boyfriend, Quincy, who said that she spent too much time playing basketball and not enough time paying attention to him. Although the emphasis throughout her life was always to be pretty, feminine, and have a boyfriend Monica continued with basketball. Her intensity and determination eventually changed the minds of others to accept that she was not going to go away. Furthermore, the movie emphasized Monica's toned body. Years ago the image of a muscular female body was frowned upon but over the years the body image has changed and the movie shows that a toned female body is accepted and appreciated.
The determination of Monica and other female athletes, not to give up when they are faced with hardships, has helped the advancement of women's sports. When Monica first got out of college all her fellow basketball players, including herself, had to travel overseas in order to play. Without the opportunities in the United States, female athletes were forced to play in another country where they were without their family, friends, fans, and sometimes without even understanding the language. However, when she returns home she is able to play in the WNBA and continue her dream. Quincy, her boyfriend and later husband, supports her when she has given up. As more and more women show their interest and determination in playing sports hopefully the number of opportunities will also increase.
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Week 4 Questions
Date: 2003-02-22 09:33:45
Message Id: 4748
Comments:
Please answer one of the three questions:
1. Is it advancement for women in sport, that the main character is the first woman on the cover of SURFING magazine? Why or why not?
2. (Same as week #1) What is the cultural ideal of women in sport? And how does it differ from men?
3. How does this film stereotype the main and supporting characters in this film?
Name: Corey Gittus
Username: cgittus@wesleyan.ed
Subject: Blue Crush
Date: 2003-02-23 11:55:37
Message Id: 4760
Comments:
I feel that this movie does stereotype the main and supporting characters to some extent. They are stereotyped through the way they look, dress, speak, and act. For example the main character, Ann Marie, has the typical surfer body, skinny with blonde hair. Furthermore, I find it interesting that she wears a string bikini to surf in. This personally bothered me because I feel that in order to do anything athletic you are unable to wear a skimpy bikini that is meant for tanning and showing of the body. The movie did however; try to destroy part of the typical stereotype of a girl by showing Ann Marie's competitive attitude side. Yet, once again one of the main reasons that she goes out in the ocean after her bad crash into the waves is because of the man. Matt, the football player tells her one of his own personal stories, and only after getting encouragement from a male does she continue to compete. Ann Marie's sister however is portrayed as the typical girly girl. She is seeing being ditzy around all the boys. Ann Marie comments about how her sister only goes out on the surfboard to get attention from the guys and does not even surf.
The men in the movie are also stereotyped. The football players in the movie are also stereotyped. The first impression we get of them is when the girls walk into the filthy hotel room. We get the impression that all they do is party and have sex, when we see the used condom on the floor. Furthermore, the way in which the football players strut around dancing and acting like they are the "top dogs" is also very stereotypical for male athletes. The local surfer guys are stereotyped in that they are exactly what you would see on the cover of a surfer magazine, tan bodies with perfect six packs. They also have the typical macho male attitude of defending their turf when the football player is found at their beach. Overall, the characters in the movie did fit some stereotypes. There were exceptions and little things about each character that helped to destroy their typical stereotype.
Name: Jennifer Levine
Username: jalevine@wesleyan.edu
Subject: Blue Crush Response
Date: 2003-02-23 20:31:04
Message Id: 4769
Comments:
3. How does this film stereotype the main and supporting characters in this film?
The movie Blue Crush does form stereotypical views of the main and supporting characters in the film. It sheds both glorious and unfavorable light on certain aspects of the lives of females and males in Hawaii. It also exemplifies typical male belief in regards to women in sports.
The main female characters are displayed in a typical Hawaiian manner. They are tall beautiful, thin and tan. They are shown as "local" girls, just wanting to catch some waves and do not care about their futures. Instead of going to school they work as maids in a hotel. This illustrates that they have no upward occupational mobility and will be waiting on people for the rest of their lives. This is not the way that all people in Hawaii live and surfing is not all that they care about. They also place an emphasis on how the younger sister of Anne Marie, Penny, goes to school but out of force. It makes a generalization that all women in Hawaii do not think education is important, when there are people who care about their future.
In terms of sports and athletics, the three main female characters are very serious about surfing. However, they have to deal with the daily taunting from the male surfers that surfing is not a sport for girls. It presents the stereotypical male belief that girls can not ride the "real" or pipeline waves and that men are the only ones able. To prove that she is serious, Anne Marie has to join the boys and prove that she is for real about competing with them on the serious or dangerous waves. She has to earn their respect rather than just get it for attempting to ride the pipe waves. I also thought the scene when all the girls were at the house and Eden was watching a home video of Anne Marie as a little girl dominating the waves at a co-ed junior surfing competition was very interesting. Eden reminded Anne Marie how the league imposed a new rule after she won first place, denying girls the admittance to the competition in the future. This demonstrates how society does not give approval of girl being better at a sport than boys.
The males in this film also undergo stereotypical scrutiny. The football players who come to Hawaii on vacation are shown as partiers who run around spending hundreds of dollars like it is pocket change. They are men with lots of money, not a care in the world and are very egocentric. The local males are also illustrated in a unique respect. They are depicted as serious surfers who do not like outsiders in their surfing community. They believe that certain spots on the island are special spots for the locals and not the tourists. It is like an animal marking his territory, and those who enter will be punished, or in the case of the movie the boys will fight it out.
Blue Crush gives the female characters strength, independence and forms unique women, who are trying to overcome the gender barriers in sports. It gives encouragement to the younger female audiences, showing that with hard work and dedication a woman can achieve the same respect as men in a male dominated sport.
Name: Richard Lee
Username: rjlee@wesleyan.edu
Subject: blue crush
Date: 2003-02-24 00:19:02
Message Id: 4781
Comments:
I knew Blue Crush wouldn't win any Oscars, but I was optimistic that it would be a fun, feel-good movie. For the most part it was, but all the great surfing scenes couldn't overcome the mediocre acting and story. Like Attack of the Clones, the romance killed this movie. Instead of the support of Anne Marie's best friends, it's the encouragement of her one-week old boy toy, Matt, that gives her the strength to go on. Did anyone else have a problem with the fact that he basically paid Anne Marie for sex?
Corey mentioned that one positive is Anne Marie's competitive spirit. This is true, and we see her strength and toughness when she is training at the beginning of the movie and when she continued after hitting the rock (what happened to the blood?). But in general, I think the movie reinforces the idea that women aren't very competitive. Her old rival, Eden, is now helping her and says she gave up because she knew she wasn't as good a surfer as Anne Marie. Kala, the top women's surfer also helps Anne Marie when she is struggling. As nice as it was to see this display of sportsmanship, it was very unbelievable since they were supposed to be in competition with each other. Contrast that with Love and Basketball, where Monica is in a fierce battle for the starting point guard position.
The men in the movie aren't portrayed any better as the football players are little more then stereotypes. There was Leslie, the audacious black linebacker, who was a replica of Warren Sapp, and Matt, the pretty-boy white quarterback. The players' wives and girlfriends were even worse. Materialistic and snobby, they were only with the football players for their fame and money. The film's only redeeming quality was the surfing scenes, although how did Anne Marie's bikini top never fall off?