Women, Sport, and Film Course

FORUM ARCHIVE

WEEK 4

Name:  Mya Mangawang
Username:  mmangawa@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  girlfight
Date:  2004-02-20 09:11:56
Message Id:  8309
Comments:
Good morning. Thanks for the great participation last evening. Here are the discussion questions we didn't get to tend to last night:

Director Karyn Kusama's emphasis on Diana's environment (family, school, housing projects, etc.) can be seen as a critique of those social structures Kusama called "forms of oppression and violence." However, this emphasis on Diana's environment could also be seen as a way to explain or even apologize for such an aggressive young woman.

Do you think Kusama does a better job at challenging gender stereotypes or reinforcing them by "apologizing" for her aggressive protagonist?

Is Diana's aggression somehow made more "acceptable" because she is a poor Latina? Likewise, does Kusama make Diana more "acceptable" by emphasizing such a prominent (heterosexual) love story?

Name:  Kate
Username:  ktucker@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  girlfight
Date:  2004-02-21 05:15:31
Message Id:  8327
Comments:
The portrayal of Diana as an angry woman dealing with a violent background does somewhat "excuse" her aggressive attitude, but I don't think this is any more so than a movie about a man might do. There are many movies about angry young men that show how they got that attitude and show how they channel those aggressive energies into something productive. Diana's story is no different. Although I am not a fan of boxing, it is still a much more productive and rewarding use of time than getting in fights over trivial matters at school. I don't know a lot about boxing, but it seems to me that it requires this buried aggression. It would take a lot of anger for me to get in that ring and box. So if Kusama is apologizing for Diana's behavior, then she is really apologizing for the sport as a whole and the conditions that drive people to that anger, not just singling out women. It is more unusual to see women take that route...obviously there are not that many women that box or Diana's story wouldn't have been unique. But that gym was full of angry young men. Diana has the same background and the same feelings. I don't think the movie apologizes for her acting that way as a woman, but perhaps it does for people acting violently in general.
I think Diana's story is made more acceptable because she is a poor Latina and because of the love interest. She is a young woman with nothing to lose. Boxing certainly can't hurt her...instead it gives her a way out of the mess that she lives in. Whereas a student in a better school might succeed by going to college, Diana's options are more limited. It is a triumph that she found a possible route to success, even if it was not conventional. The love interest also makes the movie more palatable, but I don't think its implying that a woman has to have a romantic relationship or that boxing was just a route to finding a man. Instead, I think it shows that Diana could be herself and follow her passions and still form a healthy, loving relationship. Does a woman have to have a boyfriend? No. But is it nice for her to find someone she cares about that can accept her for who she is. Yes! And he paves the way for other men to approve. But I really don't think that Kusama is implying that Diana is more acceptable because she fell in love. I think she is simply allowing Diana to live the life she desires, which makes her chosen path more acceptable because she is satisfied in her relationships as well as her careers.

Name:  Laura Sockol
Username:  lsockol@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Girlfight
Date:  2004-02-21 23:41:29
Message Id:  8345
Comments:
I don't think Kusama is apologizing for Diana's behavior, at all. I think she somewhat explains it in a social context, but her agression is not meant to be viewed in a negative context. It is rebellion against her social circumstances, but it is POSITIVE rebellion. Once she channels it into boxing and improving herself, that is. I thought a really key scene was when she sat down to watch TV after clearing up dinner - there were 3 different things she flipped through: a news story about a woman who was raped and/or killed, a novella (something love related, I don't know what, I don't speak spanish), and a commercial with some woman extolling the values of a cleaning product. I think this rather succinctly summarized all of the things that Diana broke out against - violence against women (as when Diana turns the tables against her father), women as love objects (as when she takes control of her relationship with Adrian), and her expected domestic roles (like when her brother ends up having to make dinner. She doesn't apologize, at all. I loved that!)

... I think the social context serves to rationalize Diana's behavior, but it doesn't EXCUSE it or apologize for it. That implies that Diana shouldn't be agressive. I think Kusama showed that she had all the reason in the world to be aggressive.

(and look! I remembered to sign my name)

Name:  Naomi Spector
Username:  nspector@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  girlfight #1
Date:  2004-02-22 18:26:10
Message Id:  8362
Comments:
I think the emphasis on Diana's environment does make the fact that she is an aggressive young woman more reconcilable for the audience. They can feel more comfortable and are able to more easily understand (and empathize with?) her because she is a "poor Latina." I think that this emphasis is not so much to "apologize" for her behavior, but to make it more accessible to the audience, so they aren't easily scared off or feel uneasy and thus wouldn't watch the film. Perhaps it is sort of an excuse or apology for the filmmaker not being as aggressive or as confident in making the film -- she shows the audience what they want or expect to see, to an extent. Ultimately, though, the fact that the filmmaker made a film about a female boxer is a feat in itself, and does show a great degree of confidence on her part that audiences would see a physically aggressive female, as the protagonist, on screen.

Name:  Kelsey Smith
Username:  klsmith@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Girlfight
Date:  2004-02-22 20:06:43
Message Id:  8365
Comments:
I think it is entirely acceptable that Diana was aggressive. She needed a way to channel her energy. Kusama does a great job at challenging gender stereotypes because it is not typical for a woman to be a boxer. Being a poor Latina helps make the aggression more acceptable because Diana does not have other options. Kusama definately makes Diana more acceptable by having a heterosexual love story since people too frequently assume that a strong and slightly masculine young woman is homosexual.

Name:  talia squires
Username:  tsquires@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date:  2004-02-23 00:00:50
Message Id:  8380
Comments:
I don't think that Diana's aggression was being justified more than being apologized for, I also feel like it was a more general justification for all of the boxers, than just Diana. I found the relationship with her boyfriend interesting, because it seemed tacked on at times. I thought a lot of it rang true, especially his struggle between chivalry and equality. He was raised to look at respecting women differently than she wanted to respected. She didn't want to be treasured, she wanted to be treated as a complete equal, and still seen as different in some ways. She wanted to be a woman, loved by a man, but in the boxing ring she wanted the competitors to be "gender blind". I didn't feel like she wanted to be "one of the boys" so much as for her and the boys to all be genderless entities.

I also found it interesting that she started in very androdgenous clothing, even for her first boxing lesson and matches. Later she was wearing an athletic top which clearly showed her to be a female. In her last match, she boxes in a sports bra leaving no room for doubt about her gender. Also she wore her hair down more often as the film went on and her relationship began to develop. After establishing her as violent and not "girly", the film seemed more eager to strip away her androgany and declare her as a woman.

Name:  Nicole
Username:  nwittig@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date:  2004-02-23 00:03:57
Message Id:  8381
Comments:
I was thinking about the scene in the movie where there is a violent confrontation between the father and daughter. I thought this scene was interesting because it is believed that children growing up in a violent home tend to violent tendencies when they grow up. And typically one would think of the son to become violent, but in this case we see the daughter as the violent sibling. I think this adds to her tough appearence.

Name:  Tiffany
Username:  tstengle@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  girl fight 1
Date:  2004-02-23 19:23:16
Message Id:  8400
Comments:
Kasuma isn't apologizing for Diana's agressiveness, she's just giving it a context. Diana isn't just angry because she's strange or unstable, she really has something to be angry about. It gives the audience something to identify with. We would all be angry in that situation, too.

As for the prominence of the heterosexual relationship, it was necessary. The movie is not trying to re-enforce stereotypes about lesbians and straight women, but break them down. If Diana had had a relationship with another woman, the tension between her own two halves would have broken. In that instance the movie would also have failed to address the issue of male acceptance of women in sport. The movie hits it's mark here because of the heterosexual relationship. The most threatening thing that Diana could do to her boyfriend's masculinity was to beat him up, and she did. That he was willing to fight her, and take that risk, is more a victory than her actual win.

Name:  Mya Mangawang
Username:  mmangawa@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  GIRLFIGHT 2
Date:  2004-02-24 09:46:41
Message Id:  8445
Comments:
These were very thoughtful and helpful responses. I must admit, I am with Jessie (Group 3) and remain "definitely conflicted about this film." While as Talia (Group 2) suggests, Kusama does a good job at "show[ing] us something about [Diana's] socio-economic situation" that ultimately manifests in what Laura (Group 4) called a "positive rebellion," parts of the film remain troubling. Perhaps it is that it does feel a bit like Kusama is as Katie (Group 1) suggests "blaming the environment," but my uneasiness stems most directly from the fact that aggressive females (and their representations) are still so often and so deeply entrenched in explanations and assurances.

Can you think of any films in which there is an aggressive female protagonist for whom there is neither an explanation for her aggression (a traditionally "masculine" attribute) nor an assurance that she is heterosexual? Can anyone remember the cover of the first Women's Sport Illustrated (this should get you ready for this week's film)?

Name:  Mya Mangawang
Username:  mmangawa@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  GIRLFIGHT 2
Date:  2004-02-24 09:46:47
Message Id:  8446
Comments:
These were very thoughtful and helpful responses. I must admit, I am with Jessie (Group 3) and remain "definitely conflicted about this film." While as Talia (Group 2) suggests, Kusama does a good job at "show[ing] us something about [Diana's] socio-economic situation" that ultimately manifests in what Laura (Group 4) called a "positive rebellion," parts of the film remain troubling. Perhaps it is that it does feel a bit like Kusama is as Katie (Group 1) suggests "blaming the environment," but my uneasiness stems most directly from the fact that aggressive females (and their representations) are still so often and so deeply entrenched in explanations and assurances.

Name:  Laura Sockol
Username:  lsockol@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  response 2
Date:  2004-02-24 12:26:57
Message Id:  8453
Comments:
Aggressive female for whom there is no explanation ...
Gia.

Yeah, she was a supermodel, which is "girlie" - but she was the anti-supermodel for her time. She was something different. Dark and wild and addicted to heroin. Not that those are all positive characteristics.

And she liked girls, so it definitely wasn't rationalized through a heterosexual relationship.

I don't know if this is the best example, though, since it's not the happiest story. It was just the first thing that came to mind. In terms of current movies, you could go with Eowyn from Return of the King. Now THERE'S an aggressive female ... "I am no man" and all of that.

Name:  christina
Username:  ckim@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  response
Date:  2004-02-24 18:27:22
Message Id:  8463
Comments:
I think Kusmana was challenging the stereotypes of Diana's social background by using Diana, a girl, to be doing something that's described as male. She aggressiveness may have been a result of a reaction to her parents violence, or just her own personal way of dealing with behavior. I think it's important to note however, that since she started training, she stopped having fights in school and was able to control her anger and focus it in a more healthy manner.
I did think the relationship between her and the boy was a bit irrelevant. Perhaps it was to show that she was heterosexual, but I think it took some emphasis away from her sport. But she did beat him, and that made him upset, bringing in themes of jealously and competition between male and female.

Name:  Kelsey Smith
Username:  klsmith@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Girlfight 2
Date:  2004-02-25 07:42:19
Message Id:  8482
Comments:
No, I don't know of any examples where there is an aggressive feamle protagonist for whom there is no explanation for her aggression. I think the aggreesion works well in Girlfight because it shows one way of conflict resolution, even if it is not the most direct route. I agree with Tiffany in thinking that Diana had something to be angry about. She didn't fit in with her emotions or her environment and boxing gave her an opportunity to find her place.

Name:  Kelsey Smith
Username:  klsmith@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Bend it Like Beckham 2
Date:  2004-02-25 07:55:12
Message Id:  8483
Comments:
Sport heightens the conversation re: gender and orientation for women and not for men because it is rooted in culture for men to prove themselves athletically. One example is the ancient Olympic games, an event in which only men participated and viewed. As a consequence, it is normal for men to be athletic. With women, by contrast, it has only become mainstream in the last fifty years and people still talk about orientation. I cannot think of other places in society where this happens for women. However, men who participate in art and dance (esp. ballet) are frequently talked about in terms of their orientation.

Name:  Kate Tucker
Username:  ktucker@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  girlfight 2
Date:  2004-02-25 12:18:57
Message Id:  8487
Comments:
It is difficult to think of any movies where women are aggressive, but that aggression is not explained in some way. I think Eowyn from Lord of the Rings in actually a good example. In that scenario, the character is part of an aggressive society, but as a woman is not supposed to participate. But I think if we look at the motivations of her character...she wants to fight with honor like the men do. Seeing that movie...the way they fight is pretty brutal. But it is rationalized, even for the men. Its okay that they behave in that way because its for a just cause and because it makes them honorable men. I am not bothered by rationalizing the reason that women act more aggressively and violently in these films. I think its more worrisome that sometimes we don't analyze it. Its much more of a concern that we think its acceptable for a man to beat someone up (without having any extreme influence from life). Men are traditionally supposed to act aggressive and violent when the times call for it. Thus we would expect that reaction from men when faced with situations that anger them. Some women don't respond this way, but many women do through violence towards themselves. Anywhere I see brutality, it is my instinct to look for the causes of that brutality, regardless of gender. Violence is not something I'm willing to accept as "just the nature of the beast".

Name:  Kate
Username:  ktucker@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Bend it like bekham #2
Date:  2004-02-25 12:29:42
Message Id:  8488
Comments:
The misunderstanding that Jules' mother has about Jules and Jess's relationship is actually prevalent all over the place whenever people break societal gender norms. Whereas women have started breaking out of the constraints, I think its actually often more noticable for men. Sometimes women do face being labeled as a homosexual because they participate in activities (such as sports) that in the past were considered a masculine pursuit. The same is true of men who enjoy things that were traditionally considered female activities. Look at Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Okay, yes, the men on that show are actually gay...but the implication is that gay men like decorating and dressing well, which is usually characteristic of women. There are tons of other situations in which men face this same stereotype. What is really going on is that people feel threated by the loss of those stereotypes and are lashing out at them by any means possible.

Name:  ktucker@brynmawr.edu
Username:  ktucker@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Week One make up posts
Date:  2004-02-25 12:48:03
Message Id:  8489
Comments:
I swear I posted once to the first week's forum, but it isn't on there, so I'm going to combine the two posts into one just to minimize confusion.
Post#1:

A little belatedly, I'll introduce myself.
My name is Kate. I'm a senior political science major and I live in Merion.
I think the changes that have occurred surronding women and sport are reflections of larger societal changes that have been occurring at the same time. This is a process of gender redefinition. I would like to believe that gender ideologies have been broken down somewhat and that the playing field is now equal for all genders, but I think the reality of the situation is more that gender ideologies hav been reconstructed. And the new reconstruction has slowly made it more acceptable for women to play sports and participate in other activities that used to be considered masculine activites. This makes it sound like a passive process, but that's not really what is has been at all. Instead, this redefinition has occurred by the determination of many women who possess the talent and the ambition to take on these "male" activies. Women who enjoy these activities and won't take "no" for an answer. We owe our expanded opportunities and more flexible gender ideologies to these pioneering women.

Okay, and for post #2:

Generally, I'd say an athlete is someone who is committed to excelling in the area of athletics by maintaining the physical fitness necessary to do that and by improving oneself in the chosen sports. I wouldn't call myself at athlete. Certainly during my years at Bryn Mawr I have not been athletic in the slightest, and I'm not sure why since I was usually involved in some sport in high school. Looking back on it, though, I never considered myself to be athletic. I guess because, even though I enjoyed my two chosen forms of athleticism, softball and Tae Kwon Doe, I wasn't particularly talented at either one or physically fit. I was much more physically fit than I am now, though! So in hindsight, perhaps I was an athlete in high school.

Name:  Naomi Spector
Username:  nspector@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  girlfight #2
Date:  2004-02-25 15:59:37
Message Id:  8491
Comments:
I can't think of a particular film in which there is such a female character, but it made me sort of think of many movies that show a group of kids (like a Disney movie) where there is always a "tomboyish" girl in the group. And it's as if there always has to be one girl like that in the group to make it "politically correct" or something, but then usually in the end, as the girl grows up she "grows out" of that tomboyish stage, and puts on some makeup and a dress and turns out to be really pretty and she and the main boy character fall in love, etc. So in these cases it seems to show this sort of "masculinized" (I think I made that word up) girl character as a constant or normal occurrence within a group of kids, but portrays this only as a "stage" she's going through and in the end she really is like all other "girly" girls.

Name:  Nicole
Username:  nwittig@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date:  2004-02-25 20:51:43
Message Id:  8505
Comments:
In response to a strong female character who is strong I can think of one character who is a little obscure. I recently saw a film from the eighties called Streets of Fire, where the maIn character picks up a sidekick named McCoy. The only cause for her aggression may be that she has been a soldier. She can carry a gun, knock out any guy, and does not succumb to the sultry Tom Cody, the hero. She is in sharp contrast to the victim in the movie, a very sexy singer who has had a relationship with Cody. McCoy is pretty much asexual throughout the movie, showing no attraction to either gender.

Name:  talia
Username:  tsquires@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date:  2004-02-26 11:41:11
Message Id:  8525
Comments:
This is the other girl from 102, where we watch very odd movies. Our most recent favorite has been Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter (fabulous film, complete with musical numbers, and chock full of camp). The protaganist, or head vampire, was definitly not heterosexual. but Mary Magdeline was also gay. She was out to save the world and kick butt and all, but in the end her slight flirtations with Jesus only revealed that she was more interested in women. I'm not sure if this was to emphasize the message of the film that all love is good love, or if it was to highten the sacreligiousness of it all, but it worked fabulous. Also the evil vampire, becomes good in the end, but maintins her sexuality, so it was clear that she wasn't just gay and violent because she was the evil one.

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Women, Sport, and Film Course

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