Women, Sport, and Film Course
Cosponsored by Athletics and Physical Education at Bryn Mawr College
and the Exercise and Sports Studies Department at Smith College, with
support from the Center for Science In Society at Bryn Mawr College and the
Serendip website.
WEEK 3 - FORUM 1
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: WEEK 3 questions
Date: 2003-02-16 16:10:21
Message Id: 4624
Comments:
The class at Smith, Bryn Mawr and Wesleyan have viewed a few different films--all films have themes that connect to the larger questions of women and sport. Please respond to the questions based upon the films you have watched. Feel free to comment on the themes that link all of our classes together in the broader conversation about women, sport, Title IX, gender etc. Enjoy the conversation!!
1. What is the cultural ideal displayed by the main characters in each film? What norms/ideals of the time, do the characters challenge and expand?
2. What is the relationship between the main characters in the films and their message about women and sport? Has it had an impact on what is happening in women's sport today? How does it effect womne who are not engaged in sport?
3. How does the media - print - video/movie - web - portary women and sport? Is it helpful?
Name: Jillian Best
Username: jbest@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-17 14:32:35
Message Id: 4639
Comments:
I keep thinking about the part of Love and Basketball when they have the argument about Monica's unavailability in the relationship being a result of her interest in basketball. Q is upset with her because she would rather stick to her curfew than stay out with him. Monica says "I would never ask you to choose between basketball and me." And Q says, "You wouldn't have to." I was thinking about that and how it is probably true. He would probably not worry as much about breaking curfew if she needed him. But then I wondered why I felt that way. Then I realized that throughout the movie, her basketball experience is displayed as much more intense than his. They use a juxtaposition of scenes of her in the gym for endless hours of grueling, humiliating practice and him at parties and giving interviews and autographs. He would have been more able to break curfew because there would not have been such a harsh consequence. He was a pet. Basically, the movie depicts women athletes and having to give more than the men athletes for half the recognition.
Name: E. Fardig
Username: efardig@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-17 18:25:24
Message Id: 4643
Comments:
I think that the portrayal of Monica as a basketball player is a progressive one. She is shown as strong, skilled, and excels at her sport. Although she has to work very hard for recognition once she reaches college, I think the movie celebrates her drive to achieve. It is her focus and determination that allow her to go on to play professionally in Europe. In contrast, Q seems to rely upon his fame, and eventually his poor decisions come back to haunt him. By showing the final scene where Monica is playing in the WNBA and Q is on the sidelines cheering, the movie is telling its audience that it is okay for women to succeed in sport and for their significant others to be in the supporting role. Unlike National Velvet, where Velvet was told to put away her equestrian dreams and become a lady after the competition, Love and Basketball shows that a woman can be both a mother/wife and a competitor.
Name: valerie s
Username: vsorense@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-17 23:28:39
Message Id: 4647
Comments:
the movie love and basketball portrayed the lead character as being a strong independent woman, who still was able to "get her man" even though she could probably beat him at his own game. she was genuine and devoted to her sport, and yet she still found the perfect balance. but one has to question, that if this wasnt a movie, would she still have gotten everything? would her love of sport really controlled her life? would she have been able to have a family? i somehow think that in the real world, it would not have fit together so perfectly.
Name: lily gataullina
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-19 10:44:10
Message Id: 4671
Comments:
What I found interesting in both National Valvet and Love and Basketball is that in both movies women athletes were depicted as the ones who had somewhat less talent than the men that they met, and that both of them had to work much harder to reach their goals then the main male characters did. Unlike men, however, both Valvet and Monica managed and reached higher success than the men. Though there were many moments in these movies showing hardships that woman can meet in sport, I think there was a very optimistic view on the abilities of women in sport.
Name: lily gataullina
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-19 13:55:26
Message Id: 4673
Comments:
When we discuss how media portrays women, it is important not to forget, that media portrays what attracts more attentions of its readers, listeners and viewers. We talk about media shaping our views, but we forget that popularity of media depends upon us, and if we as readers and viewers would not like certain images that are shown on the TV shows and printed in the newspapers, media would not risk its popularity to have them on its main pages. Media reflects upon the most popular, the most spread elements in the life of society. Therefore, before judging the newspaper for having a big photo of the athlete in her kitchen, we might want to look in the kitchen of other female athletes. I am sure that there are many female athletes who have to work hard both in the gym and kitchen. Why do we look ironically then at these images in film and newspaper, which unfortunately still represent the truth of the social life in this and other countries?
Name: Sara Watson
Username: swatson2@email.smith.edu
Subject: Images of Norms For Women Athletes
Date: 2003-02-19 17:47:23
Message Id: 4676
Comments:
In response to the first question, I think it is interesting to take a look at Monica in Love and Basketball. Even though she shows great talent as an athlete at a young age, she is still pressured to be feminine. But further, this brings up the notion that a woman can not be athletic and feminine at the same time. That you have to be one or the other, or that these ideas are paradoxes of each other by nature. I think that Monica's character worked to expand the societal expectation that girls do not grow up to be athletes.
Secondly, Monica's message about women in sport, was at least that women can particiapate, and they can do it well. Within this film there is a focus on how Monica relates with her neighbor---she is a friend/girlfriend to him first, and an athlete second. For women not participating in sport-- there is a general concept that women are constantly forced to balance things which do not fall into their gender norm. Society as of now will basically accept that behavior which is outside of one's gender norm--as long as it is balanced with behavior that lies within it.
I think Love and Basketball does a good job of insuring that the difference in experience for male and female athletes is not a desirable one for young women. However, there are still gender norms that are perpetuated throughout the film. The media in general, though, is much more detrimental to the image of the female athlete--assuming they get the coverage. The way that women are discussed in regards to the sporting event often has nothing to do with the sport they play, but their personal lives instead. The issue is that the focus that is put on the female athlete is not athletic in nature, but rather personal--where the male athlete's biography is based on his athleticism.
Name: Jennifer
Username: jfichter@smith.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-19 19:05:28
Message Id: 4679
Comments:
The main character, Monica in Love of Basketball is depicted as a strong individual that despite her mother's and society's expectations for young women manages to continually make steps toward reaching her goal. Monica's willpower and drive help her focus on basket-ball goals and ignore the disapproval of her peers. Where as Q plays basket-ball to achieve popularity and approval of his father. Once Q loses faith in his father, by finding out about the affair, he begins to play poorly in the games. Society does allow the female athletes to play but does not appreciate them as much as male athletes. This is evident by the difference in numbers at each game. The amount of spectators at the boys' game is at least four times the amount at the girls. Also the boys play in an illuminated arena with cheerleaders, announcers, and a band. The girls play in a gym with quarter filled stands no lights, no music.
The other day I was flipping through channels and male basket-ball game was on it was hard for me to tell, not being a huge basket-ball fan, whether it was pro or collegiate. I also came across female collegiate basket-ball game there was no band, and the stands were scarcely filled. Female athletes have to motivated and willing to deal with negative judgment, whereas male athletes just have to prepare for a greeting.
Name: Monika Le
Username: mle@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-19 19:45:55
Message Id: 4680
Comments:
I found it very interesting in 'Love and Basketball' that although Monica was an amazing athlete who loved basketball and worked very hard to succeed in her sport, she still could not be an athlete who could succeed at 'everyday' female behavior. An example of this is how, at a young age, Monica could care less about dressing up or fixing her hair. She even dressed like a boy. Later on, we see her in high school as a teenager who still maintains very typical tomboy qualities -- she still wears a simple tshirt and jeans, her hair is messy, she has a temper, and she lacks a date to the spring dance until her older sister sets her up with someone. At the dance, she lacks social skills. Even as an adult, Monica has trouble walking in shoes with heels while wearing a skirt to work at her bank job.
I still have not seen a movie where the woman athlete can also be accepted as a woman. Why does she always have to be a tomboy in order to enjoy sports?
Name: E. Fardig
Username: efardig@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Response to Media Comment
Date: 2003-02-19 20:09:28
Message Id: 4681
Comments:
Lily Gataullina said "I am sure that there are many female athletes who have to work hard both in the gym and kitchen. Why do we look ironically then at these images in film and newspaper, which unfortunately still represent the truth of the social life in this and other countries?" I brought in the paper to show to the class because it exemplified one of the two images of female athletes that appear the most often in the media: family life shot or the sexy model image. The picture was on the front page of the Sports section, not a Style or Arts section that might be justified in exploring an athlete's personal, non-sports life. Instead of talking about her athletic talent and showing the readers what she looks like when playing golf, the image shows her as a domestic woman. I take offense at the media's persistence in showing women off the field, focusing on their womanly attributes and not their power and skill. The pictures we see are not even usually the "truth" as you have put it, only a stilted version that marginalizes women athletes. Male athletes have hobbies and families, but their pictures in the sports section are of them on the field or in the court, not in their kitchens or with their arms around their wives and children in a picture of marital bliss.
Name: Alice Goff
Username: agoff@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Love and Basketball
Date: 2003-02-20 18:28:05
Message Id: 4718
Comments:
Love and Basketball portrayed a very interesting cultural ideal of a woman athlete. Monica was dedicated to her sport, but she was not a "natural", a born basketball player, as much as Velvet was in National Velvet. The film showed the amount that she had to work in order to get to the WNBA, much more so than Velvet's almost miraculous jump from novice child to pro-jockey. This has the result of humanizing Monica, who is a portrayed as an athlete, but also as a person. This is an important facet of this cultural ideal, because there is a cultural tendency I think, and as others have mentioned, to think that women can EITHER be athletes OR mothers, wives, and women. This film exposed the idea that women can be in sports, but also in love, in trouble, in life, etc. The one problem I did have with the film is that at the end Monica is still unfulfilled by her own success-- she needs the love of Q to make her complete. Basketball is nothing to her without a man. And in the scene where she balls him to win his heart, she is being made to utilize her skills as an athlete to "get the man"-- not exactly an empowering image. But then again, maybe I am just an un-romantic.
Name: Sarah
Username: sanguin@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Cultural Issues in the movie
Date: 2003-02-20 18:41:37
Message Id: 4723
Comments:
One of the major points of the movie was that women atheletes do not get as much recognition for their abilities as men do. Also, that there is a double standard. That women are seen first as women and secodly as athletes. Thereore they feel pressure not to be atheletes to the fullest. This view of women first, and most importantly, as feminine and second as athelentes is the stereotype that the main character was constantly at batle with. Te main character had a difficult time dealing with the conflicting expectations for female atheletes.
Name: Sarah
Username: sanguin@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Cultural Issues in the movie
Date: 2003-02-20 18:54:47
Message Id: 4727
Comments:
I agree with Monica. Women atheletes are almost always depected as tomboys with few feminine atributes. I know many female atheletes who are very feminine and graceful, yet competitive and agressive when playing sports. Why are the feminine yet competitive women not depicted more often in movies?
At the same time, it is important to note that this is a phenomenon that is somewhat unique to movies and not all media. As ws discussed in our first class atheletes physical ability is often played down, and their femenine atributes ephasized by the media.
Name: Jenna Rosania
Username: jrosania@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 18:55:04
Message Id: 4728
Comments:
There were many things in In Love and Basketball that I was happy to see. I liked that she always tried to be noticed for her abilities rather than for more superficial qualities as many others of the girls in the movie were. As a result she had a much harder time finding acceptance among her peers, her family and even her boyfriend who should have been the most understanding of her problems. Her boyfriend, who I like to think of as her foil, had the the same talent and desire to play basketball, yet this was much more accepted by those around him. He got all the attention so easily while she had to fight hard for it and more than not, ran into much tougher obstacles. I liked that she never thought of changing for him either, she even let him break up with her because she knew she could not compromise herself and the sport she loved. The choices she made were usually very good to see and inspiring. However, there were times when she was very pressured to be the way girls are "suppossed to be." At her high school, she wasnt noticed by anyone until she put on tons of makeup and a tight dress. It wasnt her talent that made everyone notice her, it was her appearance. This is just realism however. Our society praises girls for their charms and good looks and only when these things are present can people start to see past them and praise girls for their abilties as well. A girl can be a good basketball player, but if she is pretty too, then she can be a star.
Name: Jenna Rosania
Username: jrosania@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-20 19:07:03
Message Id: 4731
Comments:
I agree with what people have said about female sports not being nearly as popular as male sports. I have to admit myself, I am much more apt to watch a male basketball game or watch football and I never go looking for a womens game. Maybe its because I was raised by my father and just think of men when I think of a game on tv. Or maybe its because I would truly have to go looking for a womens game. I have never actually flipped through channels and found a womens sport without knowing it would be on. On the other hand, one cannot help but run into game after game of mens sports, because they have a longer history and therefore, a more rooted following and more chance of getting prime time spots on tv. In order to become a womens basketball fan for instance, you would have to research a bit, learn the teams and the players and then be sure to watch them and follow them. Mens sports are unavoidable, everyone knows their names and teams, and most people even know a few basic things about some of the players, and this is all if you arent even that insterested in sports. I myself can't name a single women's basketball team in the WNBA, and though I am not proud of this, I think I would actively have to take an interest for myself in learning the names of the teams and their standings and star players because the news wont be providing that unless something sensational and completely not sports-related happens, like someone rips off their shirt again or gets into a fight with the other team. Women in sports are only recognized if their actions continue to feed into the prejudices of our society. Wed much rather see a basketball player taking care of her husband and five kids than winning a close game.
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Week 4 Questions
Date: 2003-02-22 09:32:58
Message Id: 4747
Comments:
Please answer one of the three questions:
1. Is it advancement for women in sport, that the main character is the first woman on the cover of SURFING magazine? Why or why not?
2. (Same as week #1) What is the cultural ideal of women in sport? And how does it differ from men?
3. How does this film stereotype the main and supporting characters in this film?
Name: Maura
Username: mambuter@email.smith.edu
Subject: week 3, question 3
Date: 2003-02-23 13:54:05
Message Id: 4761
Comments:
I agree with the statement that media is a reflection of it's audiuence, what it most popular. But I also think that media creates the interests of it's viewers. People will always absorb media be it books, web, TV, etc., and those who have control over the media have the ability to influence cultural values. I think the way that media best represents women in sport is by their absence. We forget that they exist a lot of the time because the field that media-creators draw from is so limited. Not that women in sport is severely limited, but that their coverage is. SO it becomes novel when a woman is a media figure and they become a token athlete. I think that often the media focuses on them as a person rather than their career as an athlete. SOmetimes you can see a woman and know she is a media figure but have no idea that it is because she is a nationally ranked athlete because that just isn't the part of her life that gets focused on.
in love and basketball, i think it is really great that monica is so driven and that it shows her working hard and succeeding, even to the point that the ending clip is of her playing in the WNBA and Q watching. But even with that, it shows him watching with a kid on his lap, implying that the kid is hers and that family came first even if she is an athlete. And this movie isn't the kind of film a person would know about unless they were an avid watcher of sports films.
In general, you really dont see women represented as athletes, even if that is what they are, unless you are really looking for it, and still there is a very limited scope in terms of what is available.
Name: lauren weiner
Username: lcweiner@mtholyoke.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-23 17:20:32
Message Id: 4765
Comments:
The media serves to preserve, transmit, and transform the cultural ideals of a society. It is has been well documented that women's athletics receive significantly less coverage than men's athletics. You do not need the literature to prove what you already know. You see this fact ever time you turn on the TV looking to watch a women's game, or switch to the news or flip through the sports section of the paper to get the latest scores. If you believed the media, you would think women did not play sports to the degree that they currently do. This lack of attention and sever under representation undermines the true degree to which women are competing and creates a false sense of reality. This under representation also creates a vicious cycle because the growth of women's sports is severely limited due to lack of funds which come from sponsors who are interested in sports teams and figures who are featured prominently on TV. When women are not seen competing, women do not get the sponsorships they deserve to continue to build women's athletics.
When women are portrayed, the representation that does occur is both positive and negative for women's athletics. When women are seen on TV, it is positive because it means that people get the chance to see women competing, thereby potentially breaking down ideologies that have been created by years and years of under representation. Additionally, women competing on TV allows for young girls to focus attention on athletic role models. On the flip side, often the media's portrayal of women athletes is questionable. Especially in movies, women athletes are depicted sexually, with cameras focusing on the midsections and chests of the characters (as seen in Blue Crush and Love and Basketball). Women athletes are often hyper-portrayed as straight, sexy, men obsessed, thereby perpetuating the homophobic and heterocentric ideas in sport. It is certainly a positive to see women's athletic competitions portrayed on ESPN and other sporting stations (though these occurrences need to drastically increase). It is important for the print media and movie/TV portrayal of women athletes to understand the great harm they cause for the future of women's sports by focusing on the body and the sexual identity, instead of the tremendous degree of strength, power, passion, practice, and dedication of women.
Name: Laura
Username: ljpollet@mtholyoke.edu
Subject:
Date: 2003-02-23 21:46:04
Message Id: 4774
Comments:
The role that Monica plays in Love and Basketball is extremely important for all women to see, whether athletic or not. Her character portrays a strong woman going after her dream. In her journey she stumbles upon several gender stereotypes. However, Monica does not allow these stereotypes to deter her from her dream of playing professional basketball. It is unfortunate but oftentimes gender sterotypes can be too overbearing and cause a woman to give up on her dreams. Women will often succumb to these stereotypes as they may feel the fight to succeed is too great a challenge. However, Monica plows through these setbacks with determination and even more of a desire to accomplish her goals. She has a true love of basketball and doesn't let anything get in her way.
Unfortunately, it is rare to see this type of woman portrayed in a movie, let alone conclude on such a high note. It is important to continue to show women just as Monica was, stong, confident, determined and vocal. She succeeds because she holds these qualities. Young women need to see successful role models. They need to see the struggles that are involved in accomplishing any goal, but also witness their ability to overcome these setbacks. Monica's message is clear, women can make a difference and achieve any goal.
Name: Amy Melanson
Username: amelanso@smith.edu
Subject: Portrayal of Women in Sport
Date: 2003-02-23 22:38:06
Message Id: 4777
Comments:
Our ideas of personal beauty are political ideas. Beauty is typically regarded as an intrinsic quality, as something objectively verifiable, and as removed from the political ideology. However, standards of beauty vary across different cultures and times. Beauty is political because it is invented by society, and society is by definition political. Those who have beauty gain some degree of privilege by it, and those without beauty suffer some kind of disadvantages. Thus beauty, like wealth, becomes a method of ranking people, dividing them along lines of power. In women under patriarchy, beauty has been reflexive of character and of worth. What is beautiful is the evidence of class privilege. American ideals of female beauty in some ways determine how far a woman can advance in her career, education, and life pursuits. Typically, the standard of beauty for women in the United States, involves a tall, slender, busty woman with long, blonde hair. What is standard within society for all women is also standard for women in sport. The media, television, movies, etc. all continue to provide images of highly sexualized female athletes. In Blue Crush, the focus seemed to be more on hot bodies rather than surfing. The bathing suits were very revealing and even the way in which the scenes were shot showed that the focus was more on the body, particularly the mid section, and not necessarily on the elements of surfing. As emphasized in the Brace-Govan article, ?women, who are constantly objects to be gazed on, cannot escape the effect of the dominant culture, especially that culture?s image of femininity? (405). Keeping this in mind it was quite evident that in Love and Basketball femininity played a key role. Monica was always being challenged by her mother to be a lady while at the same time being challenged by her coach to get tough. Her mother could not accept the fact that Monica was a ball player. Three lines struck me as exemplifying this argument, ?she needs to stop running around like a little boy?; ?because I?d rather wear an apron than a jersey?; ?because I am a female I get told to calm down and act like a lady?you get a pat on your ass.? Not only is it challenging to become competitive within one?s game, but also it is more challenging to be accepted as a woman within that game. We are living in a different consciousness even though some things have stayed the same. With that in mind, I think that it is helpful to recognize all of the problematic issues that films, television and the media present for young, impressionable female athletes.