Women, Sport, and Film Course
Cosponsored by Athletics and Physical Education at Bryn Mawr College and the Exercise and Sports Studies Department at Smith College, with support from the Center for Science In Society at Bryn Mawr College and the Serendip website.
WEEK 3 - FORUM 4
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Forum Question for Week 3
Date: 2002-02-21 11:32:30
Message Id: 1106
Comments:
Forum Question for Week 3
The director chose certain visual shots, scripted dialogue and personal interactions to convey a message about your character. (Rachel, Bev, Lori, Carla or the judges) What is the director attempting to "say" about your character?
BMC students: please take a moment to read the e-mail sent today that gives important information on the final paper and the format for next Wednesday's class.
Name: Amy Campbell
Username: acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Forum question for week 3 from Professor Shelton and the Smith discussion
Date: 2002-02-21 17:03:18
Message Id: 1114
Comments:
Define --as your assigned character would define them, and you may
use examples--
Sexuality
Sensuality
Feminity
Name: Katie Montgomery
Username: kmontgom@email.smith.edu
Subject: Week 3 Questions
Date: 2002-02-22 08:47:05
Message Id: 1117
Comments:
Question 1:
The director chose certain visual shots, scripted dialogue and personal interactions to convey a message about your character. (Rachel, Bev, Lori, Carla or the judges) What is the director attempting to "say" about your character?
The character my group choose was Carla. From the directors choices, I believe we were suppose to see the more graceful and "femine" side of Carla. For example, the synchronized swimming aspect was shown while she was in Las Vegas and she talked with Bev about how to the two sports are compatitiable. Carla was obviously the underdog since we learned very little about her lifting regime and we never met her coaches. The other athletes were shown in the gym and through the whole process. The small tidbits of Carla's life allowed the viewer to see her as an athlete and also a person. I had a hard time seperating the two when it came to the other athletes, especially with Bev. Carla was well-spoken and articulate. I felt as if she was the future of the sport, for she aggreed with much of the body building that Bev was doing, but at the same time she was all about playing by the rules. Rachel and Lori seem to have several other issues that did not have to do with the fact that this was a competition and not a meat market. Rachel had problems with suit and with the fact that she was drunk on stage. Lori was only thinking about the money and her fiancee. From the limited point of view I was able to obtain of Carla, I believed that she was the more athletic, well-rounded competitive that incompessed what the judges wantes, beauty and muscle.
Question #2: Define --as your assigned character would define them, and you may
use examples--
Sexuality
Sensuality
Feminity
Carla would define sexuality as the act of being either male or female. I really believe that she would take the word on its most basic meaning and no look any farther into it. Sensuality would mean appealing to the sensing. Therefore her performance section of the competition is where sensuality would be shown. It is not "selling" your body. It is more the act of showing it off. Feminity is a more difficult definition as illustrated in the movie. I believe Carla would see femininity as someone who embodies the idea of a women, therefore is strong, graceful and intelligent. This definition does not limit muscle size or anything like that, it is more about how the women present themselves.
Name:
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-24 21:30:18
Message Id: 1127
Comments:
Our character was Lori. She was portrayed as a very feminine bodybuilder. her role in the film was less of a threatening competitor in the bodybuilding competition, and more of what women "should" be like. her storyline contributed to the "life outside of bodybuilding" aspect of the movie. her character had a boyfriend and we saw many scenes where it was just the two of them; this stressed the fact that Lori had a life outside bodybuilding. In one scene,even, the subject of mariage comes up as her boyfriend proposes to her (in las vagas, on the roof of thier hotel).
based on her role in the movie, i would say Lori was meant to express the sexuality issue in bodybuilding (and perhaps women's sports in general?). as we watched the movie, we were made very aware of Lori's pretty-ness/femininty. the fact that the director goes so far as to include a scene in which she and her boyfriend decide to get married is a direct statement to the fact that even though Lori has a lot of muscle, and participates in bodybuilding, she is a female! ie; she is getting married to her boyfriend. . .
Name:
Username: Anonymous
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-24 21:30:33
Message Id: 1128
Comments:
Our character was Lori. She was portrayed as a very feminine bodybuilder. her role in the film was less of a threatening competitor in the bodybuilding competition, and more of what women "should" be like. her storyline contributed to the "life outside of bodybuilding" aspect of the movie. her character had a boyfriend and we saw many scenes where it was just the two of them; this stressed the fact that Lori had a life outside bodybuilding. In one scene,even, the subject of mariage comes up as her boyfriend proposes to her (in las vagas, on the roof of thier hotel).
based on her role in the movie, i would say Lori was meant to express the sexuality issue in bodybuilding (and perhaps women's sports in general?). as we watched the movie, we were made very aware of Lori's pretty-ness/femininty. the fact that the director goes so far as to include a scene in which she and her boyfriend decide to get married is a direct statement to the fact that even though Lori has a lot of muscle, and participates in bodybuilding, she is a female! ie; she is getting married to her boyfriend. . .
Name: emily rumph
Username: erumph@smith.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-24 21:31:25
Message Id: 1129
Comments:
that last comment about lori was posted by me! sorry!
Name: Roberta
Username: rstpeter@smith.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-24 21:54:21
Message Id: 1130
Comments:
Part 1: I think that the director was trying to portray Carla as the ideal bodybuilder. She seemed to be a mix of Rachel and Bev. Carla's conversation with Bev when getting a massage, shows that Carla knows the rules of judging aren't clear nor right and it's unfortunate. Also, Carla can be seen as ideal when she is interacting with the judges and questioning the rules of what they are really looking for in the women bodybuilders. The director makes Carla out to be a good sport who is supportive and encouraging of the other women.
Part 2: I agree with Katie that Carla would define sexuality as being either male or female and nothing more to it. I think Carla would define sensuality as what is appealing to herself - what she wants to do with her body. Carla's swimming and articulate performance show her sensual self. I think Carla isn't sure what she would define as femininity. She even questioned the judges about this. If she were to define it, maybe she would say it is just being a strong, graceful woman.
Name: Jackie Raymond
Username: jraymond@smith.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-24 22:40:22
Message Id: 1133
Comments:
Question #1 My group chose Carla originally, but we were switched to Lori. I feel that Lori takes body building very seriosly, but does not allow it dominate her life. While she makes time to do what she enjoys, which is body building, she also makes time for her boyfriend and her life outside of body building. Her body is very defined, but not as much as Bev's, who works very hard to keep her body very masculine and defined. Lori focuses more on being a woman and herself rather than putting body building her biggest priority. One can tell that she works out frequently because of her defintion, but it is also very obvious that she is able to show her feminine side. She does her hair and make-up nice for the competition, and discusses marriage with her boyfriend aside from that. Overall i feel that the director is trying to show that different woman have different ways of showing there femininity. Lori is able to compete, but is also able to express her confidence in being a woman.
Question #2 I feel as though Lori is very aware and confident about her sexuality. She is confident with her body image, and isn't completely stuck on having a body that is over doing it, like Bev. She seems very proud to be a woman who competes as a body builder. I feel as though Lori is very sensual. When you look at the way she presents herself, it seems to almost boost the way woman should feel about themselves...confident with what they are doing, but keeping their femininity at the same time. The way Lori presents herself shows me that she is very feminine: doing her hair and make up for the competition, and she doesn't have this outrageously masculine looking body. She looks like a well built woman who stays in shape to do what makes her happy, which is body building.
Name: Erin Ragoza
Username: eragoza@smith.edu
Subject: Week 3 questions
Date: 2002-02-24 22:47:14
Message Id: 1135
Comments:
Question 1:
The director chose certain visual shots, scripted dialogue and personal interactions to convey a message about your character. (Rachel, Bev, Lori, Carla or the judges) What is the director attempting to "say" about your character?
Lori was portrayed as very feminine. She was shown with her boyfriend for many shots in the movie. One of the most outrageous scenes in the film was the part when Lori and her boyfriend are looking out on the city of Las Vegas and he asks her if she wants to get married. I think that the director was making it clear that she was a feminine woman. She also relied on her man for support and helping her workout. She also modeled herself after Rachel McLish, who was the most feminine of the competitors. She had a long lean body with hair, make up and, clothes that made her very feminine. Lori took dance lessons to become more graceful and feminine in the competition. She also spent some time with make up and wanting to be "the perfect woman", like Rachel.
Question #2: Define --as your assigned character would define them, and you may
use examples--
Sexuality
Sensuality
Feminity
I think that Lori would define sexuality as being either male or female. She is clearly heterosexual and I think that that plays into her defintion of sexuality. Sensuality is a bit more dificult. I think that sensuality is appealing to the senses, so it would involve her looking beautiful and perfect for the opposite sex and others who see her. She strives to be the "perfect woman", not neccessarily the biggest muscles, which makes her want to be feminine and appealing. She wants to be beautiful and fit, not the biggest or strongest.
Name: Brooke Coleman
Username: mbcolema@mtholyoke.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-25 11:49:35
Message Id: 1144
Comments:
1)The director chose certain visual shots, scripted dialogue and personal interactions to convey a message about your character. (Rachel, Bev, Lori, Carla or the judges) What is the director attempting to "say" about your character?
Our group chose to follow Carla. I think the director was attempting to bring Carla across as the most well rounded, both physically and personality-wise. In her dialogue, Carla came across as the most intelligent and well-spoken. Two scenes that jump out at me specifically were the scene when she and Bev are talking while receiving massages, as well as Carla's run-in with the judges. She is shown as the one who chooses to openly support Bev, even though it is apparent that Bev would win if the judges chose to follow the criteria Carla was advocating. There are also your typcial body shots, highlighting both Carla's muscular and facial beauty.
2)Define --as your assigned character would define them, and you may
use examples--
Sexuality-
What men and women use to sell themselves(not literally) to others. This can come across in endless forms, depending on the individual.
Sensuality
A more intimate version of sexuality. More withdrawn and unassuming.
Feminity
The Women's Body Building world's definition of feminity is much too rigid. Feminity should be defined individually by each woman in how they choose to express themselves. Bev's version of feminity will not match Rachel's version, but that shouldn't be a problem. Our current understanding of feminity is a completely bias social construct.
Name: Sarah Katz
Username: skatz@smith.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-25 14:11:54
Message Id: 1151
Comments:
The documentary portrayed Carla as something of an all-american, well rounded person whom everyone should like and respect. Her family seemed to be involved in her career in a positive, supportive way. More than once Carla's voice was heard as a questioning, assertive, influence on the fundamental issues surrounding the sport of women's bodybuilding. (on the massage table, in the locker room, and in the conference room). She did not come across as a radical in any way- she was polite and diplomatic always, even to competitors like rachel who weren't exactly easy to respect at times.
Carla was presented as an excellent sportswoman and intelligent person. THere was no need to define or even address her sexual orientation by having her hang allover her boyfriend like lori or rachel. she proved herself a 'respectable' (read: straight) member of the sport by her uncommonly pretty facial features, grace, sensitivity, and winning personality.
From our class discussion on thursday, you all maybe remember how I was struggling to figure out carla would define sexuality, sensuality, and feminnity. I am not much closer to a more concrete definition but I did have a few other ideas:
I am going to stick with what I said thursday about sexuality:
the invisible constructions formed by society (but fed and imposed by media) as to what defines 'male' and 'female' appearance and behavior.
sensuality: ummm..
still don;t know. something not scientific. something strictly aesthetic. (or do I mean esthetic?)
feminity: Carla would say that feminity can be represented by a something malleable- perhaps a wad of clay or a big rubberband. in the sense that its constantly changing both from era to era and context to context- but not necessarily in a linear format. that is to say- when our ideas of femininity evolve, it is not always into something new or better.
Name: Jennifer Banas
Username: jbanas@smith.edu
Subject: Lori's character
Date: 2002-02-25 15:57:15
Message Id: 1153
Comments:
Our group was watching Lori perform in the bodybuilding contest and I think that the director was trying to portray a women who was clearly female and was interested in bodybuilding, but at the same time show that she had a life outside of bodybuilding and that she and her husband were going to get married, he even proposed to her during the film. Lori was interested in how she looked, muscularly and beautifully, she cared about what clothes she wore and the makeup she had on, so she definitely as a feminine bodybuilder.
I think for Lori the idea of sexuality is male or female. She is in a relationship and is about to get married to her boyfriend. Sensuality to her may mean looking beyond the sexes to how a person portrays their beauty to the crowd and judges to be appealing. I think at times she was concerned with how much makeup she had on or how she looked, because she was trying to be like Rachel and she knew that Rachel was the favorite. She also portrayed her feminine aspects by the way she moved. She showed her muscle, but at the same time included graceful movements and the idea that she was a women.
Name: Debbie Siu
Username: dsiu@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-25 18:58:22
Message Id: 1164
Comments:
Our character is Carla. She is depicted as an extremely intelligent lady. She's obviously well-educated and unafraid to speak her mind. She supports Beth in her quest to win the Body Building Competition, but she also knows that in reality, Beth won't win. She knows that the judges see Beth as a lady without feminity because Beth has more muscles than everyone else in the competition. To Carla, sensuality is something every woman has, the women choose to use it or not. Sensuality is something that can attract people to you. Sexuality is biological, and feminity is what a woman emits to other people that only a woman has.
Name: Liz
Username: emarcus@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-26 16:21:02
Message Id: 1218
Comments:
Carla was portrayed as the "balanced" one of the competitors. She was muscular, but retained the feminine shape. Throughout the film, she was not shown doing the most grueling exercises. There were not even that many scenes of her working out. The competition is the first time that she is seen showing off her muscles to that degree. By doing this, she is able to retain her female identity with the judges.
She would define feminity as a air or grace about a women. Sexuality, in her eyes, is biological. In sensuality, the feeling behind a sex is brought out.
Name: Em Friedman
Username: efriedma@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: 2002-02-26 18:41:03
Message Id: 1223
Comments:
Our character was Carla.
She was never shown lifting weights, almost never shown sweating, just dancing, swimming, etc. If she's the "ideal" we're meant to take away from the movie -- I'm confused. She doesn't seem to be portrayed as much of a body-BUILDER.
Or maybe it's just me...
Name: Monica
Username: mvanbusk@smith.edu
Subject: Reaction to Posts
Date: 2002-02-27 09:55:37
Message Id: 1251
Comments:
Hello, I am a research assistant for Chris Shelton, one of the professors for this course, and was asked to read the forum.
I've seen most of Pumping Iron II, though not all. The most interesting thing to me in this forum, is that people have commented
on Bev's femininity or lack therof, but only one person offered a definition.
Sussanah said that she was upset that the bodybuilding contest was more of a beauty pageant. Lelani said that she thought
bodybuilding and femininity don't go together. What do we expect from bodybuilding? Is it impossible to be muscular and
beautiful at the same time? Is it really impossible to be feminine and muscular as the same time? Why are the two in conflict with
each other? (muscular vs. feminine and beautiful) And should we assume that feminine and beautiful are the same thing?
Dasen, Kelly, and Katie offered that Bev redefined femininity. She is gracious, graceful, kind, and Dasen and Co. suggested
that these are feminine qualities that Bev has although she doesn't *look* feminine. Everyone on the post agreed that Bev
*looked* masculine, but if she really challenges our definition of femininity, I don't believe that she challenges us to define it as a
way of acting, regardless of look, I think she challenges it all around. Sarah Johnson posted that the way the judges were
portrayed challenged us to think about how we judge bodies in sport. I think it goes farther. The combination of Bev's actions
and *look* that she desired, along with the way the judges were portrayed, challenge how we look at bodies in general, and
how we define feminine and masculine physical qualities.
Several times in the movie, people commented that Bev looked like a man. If she was obviously a woman, how can she look
like anything other than herself? Just by the nature of her existence, she *had* to *look* feminine. She is s female. Maybe it's
something for all of us to think about next time we look at a man or a woman and say that they look like the opposite gender.
Maybe it's time we redefine femininity and masculinity on a physical and more uncomfortable level.
Thanks,
Monica
Name: Tina Tan
Username: tptan@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Week 3
Date: 2002-02-27 17:30:03
Message Id: 1264
Comments:
The director chose certain visual shots, scripted dialogue and personal interactions to convey a message about your character. (Rachel, Bev, Lori, Carla or the judges) What is the director attempting to "say" about your character?
I would definitely agree with Liz in that Carla was the in-between of the extremes of Bev and Rachael. She had the balance of muscle and femininity. Carla was shown to have a much more relaxed attitude toward bodybuilding; she was only shown once in the gym. Even then, she wasn't shown to be pushing herself to the physical extertion that the other bodybuilders were. She was portrayed as very idealistic and educated, and had revolved her life around much more than the gym.
Define --as your assigned character would define them, and you may use examples--
Sexuality - physical appearance
Sensuality - how one projects their own images of their sexuality
Feminity - grace
I think Carla would say that everyone, Bev, Rachael, etc. possessed these qualities. It seemed a bit strange to define them according to Carla's way of thinking, because it seemed to me that Carla would be most opposed to definining these qualities.
Name: Jennifer Chang
Username: jchang@brynmawr.edu
Subject: carla
Date: 2002-02-27 18:18:53
Message Id: 1265
Comments:
I agree with Emily. Carla was hardly seen actually lifting weights in the film. She was portrayed as a very intelligent and graceful woman. She was very confident and secure about who she was, what she was, and how she portrayed herself to other people. I think that, although she felt that Bev was a great bodybuilder, she also knew that the judges would not see her as feminine, and only womanly because of biology. I found it ironic that the the only female judge on the panel was actually the most disgusted by Bev's body.
That's all for now.
- Jen Chang, BMC '02