Name: Peter M. Briggs
Username: pbriggs@ada.brynmawr.edu
Subject: Welcome
Date: Mon Sep 16 11:57:19 EDT 1996
Comments:
Dear Friends,
Welcome to our own electronic forum, set up specifically to meet the
needs of our Liberal Studies/Introduction to Literary Studies seminar.
I hope that in this space we will be able to share thoughts about our
readings, ask questions, follow up on class discussions, and generally to
use one another as resource people to enrich our experiences in this
course. As you know, this forum is an experiment, and we will have to ask
ourselves later how well the experiment is working--but even at the outset
one thing is clear: the success of the experiment will depend upon all
of us using this resource regularly and thoughtfully. So let's give it a
good try and see what happens.
See you in class--and we'll begin our discussion of Virgil's Aeneid.
Best wishes, PMB
Name: Cassie Chow
Username: cchow@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Thu Sep 19 17:40:24 EDT 1996
Comments:
I was wondering what everyone else thought of Dido. Of course I can see how she was supposed to be powerful, majestic,beautiful,ect, but I was bothered by her reaction to Aeneas' leaving. I suppose it's just my modern view of relationships, but her reliance on his companionship for happiness annoyed me. I have always been a strong believer in self relianc and self control even in relationships. I know this really has nothing to do with a critique of the book, but I was wondering if anyone else had similar sentiments.
Name: Clio Stearns
Username: cstearns@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Vision
Date: Thu Sep 19 19:29:34 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone... first of all, I definitely agree with Cassie that Dido is
an annoyingly weak, pathetic character. Then again, this probably shouldn't
surprise us seeing as how the portrayal of females in old literature tends
to be rather unfair... But that's a different subject.
What I wanted to talk about is something I noticed in the scene where Dido
first meets Aeneas. Before they meet, there is a description of Pallas in
which she is contrasted with the uninhibited Trojan women. It says, "she,
her face averted, would not raise her eyes." (line 657) Then it says of
Dido in line 760, "Dido with eyes downcast/ Replied in a brief speech."
Finally, Aeneas first addresses Dido saying, "Before your eyes I stand..."
(line 809) I'm not sure if this is at all significant; maybe it has to do
with foresight or blindness re. their affair? This could also be a total
stretch on my part, but it was something I noticed and I was wondering what
others thought.
Name: kate olsen
Username: colsen@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Thu Sep 19 20:03:58 EDT 1996
Comments:
I am confused about why Venus wanted Aeneas to marry Dido when it was not
in his destiny. She knew his future and knew he would be going to distant
lands and not staying in one place. I do not see what the marrage would
accomplish and what the benefits would be if Aeneas would be leaving for
Italy. What was her reasoning? Can someone shed some light on the
situation for me?
Name: Cassie Chow
Username: cchow@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Kate's Question
Date: Thu Sep 19 23:50:12 EDT 1996
Comments:
Kate... If you look on page 27, it says that Venus is worried that Juno will do something else awful to Aeneas. Dido is faithful to Juno, and Venus wants Dido to fall in love with Aeneas so that she can't be persuaded to do something harmful to him. I hope this answers your question. See you on Tuesday.
Name: kate olsen
Username: colsen@brynmawr.edu
Subject: response and t-you to cassie
Date: Fri Sep 20 14:48:25 EDT 1996
Comments:
Cassie,
Thank you for answering my question!!! I completely missed that. I
agree with your reaction to Dido. However, she is very proud and
wants Carthage to see she is in control. When Aeneas decides to leave, I
think she feels like her people won't respect her. She doesn't have the
power to keep Aeneas home. On page 117 (line 818), Dido says, "will this
man go, will he have mocked my kingdom,..." She is worried that the
people of Carthage might follow him, "will they not snatch up arms and
follow him from every quarter of the town?" Dido feels rejected and she
thinks that she is losing her authority. Perhaps she thinks that everyone
thinks she married Aeneas to help her rule, and now that he is leaving, the
people will think her incapable. Dido is angry, losing her love, and not
thinking rationally. I don't know if this explains why she acts as she
does, but her rash reaction is very reminiscent of Greek tragedies.
She wants her death to stand for something. Maybe she wants to make Aeneas
live with a great feeling of guilt or regret as punishment. I hope this
makes sense.
Name: Ji-Sun Yi
Username: jsyi@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Sat Sep 21 19:33:30 EDT 1996
Comments:
Virgil mentions of other legendary epic heroes in the Aeneid, such as
Odysseus, Agamemnon, Orestes, and Achilles. I think it's interesting,
though, that they are viewed in a different way--they're the enemies in the
poem. In the Odyssey and Iliad, they are heroes and the "good guys." But
that's not true in the Aeneid. I never thought of Odysseus as the enemy.
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Sun Sep 22 22:07:56 EDT 1996
Comments:
Joni Saloom
The Aeneid is different than any other piece I've read in
that at times it seems to be making a political statement, and
at others it reads like something out of Edith Hamilton's
Mythology, who just happens to be Bryn Mawr alumnus. For
example, I hear Mr. Brigg's voice in my head talking about
Aeneas' oratorical skill and relating him to a Roman Senator
and keep thinking about him embodying characteristics of a
revered emperor such as Octavian. However, at other times it
seems as if Aeneas is some yuppy punk from Troy who has the good
fortune to have a goddess for a mother who keeps saving his sorry
bum in battle. I mean no offense to Aeneas, seriously. I also feel
the need to defend Dido against all this feminist bashing she's getting.
I think Dido was entitled to some happiness and romance after all her
hard work and perseverance. Dido was of a passionate nature as all
women are and who can blame her for not being rational when she faced
losing a god-like Trojan hero. I must admit I found Dido intriguing.
We must keep in mind this is classical literature and feminism was
unheard of when this was written. Just enjoy the piece. I also
found it strange to think of Odysseus as the enemy.
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sun Sep 22 22:08:37 EDT 1996
Comments:
Name: Herta Baurkot
Username:
Subject: Aeneid
Date: Mon Sep 23 11:30:37 EDT 1996
Comments:
Cassie, I agree with your views on Dido. Aeneas leaving must have been a
traumatic experience but is by no means one worth killing oneself over.
I could undersand a period of depression. Isn't taking your own life a
sign of of weakness?
Name: Susan Hom
Username: shom@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Mon Sep 23 19:42:39 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone!
Here is my contribution for week one.
I have been thinking about the significance of cities in this epic poem.
I think the constant building of cities represents an attempt to become
closer to those aloof gods on Mount Olympus. They are going higher in a
"vertical world" but everytime there is a war they must keep trying.
It's not just a physical attempt to be like the gods but maybe also trying
to emulate these role models which is ironic because at times the gods are
as foolish and quarrelsome as lowly humans.
Name: Susan Hom
Username: shom@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Mon Sep 23 19:46:47 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone! Here is my contribution for week one.
I have been thinking about the significance of cities in this epic poem.
I think the constant building of cities represents an attempt to become
closer to those aloof gods on Mount Olympus. They are going higher in a
"vertical world" but everytime there is a war there cities are destroyed.
They must start all over again.
It's not just a physical attempt to be like the gods but maybe also
trying to emulate these role models which is ironic because at times the
gods are as foolish and quarrelsome as lowly humans.
Name: Susan Hom
Username: shom@brynmawr.edu
Subject:
Date: Mon Sep 23 19:49:20 EDT 1996
Comments:
Sorry about the repetition. Please only read the second paragraph because I fixed it up. I'm sorry I haven't figured out to erase.
Name: michelle frazer
Username: mfrazer@brynmawr.edu
Subject: more on oddyseus
Date: Mon Sep 23 23:15:33 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hey guys. If this is incoherent, it's because I've been fasting all day.
First off, I'd like to add my agreement about how odd it is for the Greeks
to be the enemies. Such an odd thing, how automatically I keep thinking
"but it was the Trojans fault!" when I should be sympathizing with Aeneas.
But more on the Greeks; has anyone else noticed that Virgil adds some sort
of qualifier to Oddyseus' name almost everytime its mentioned? Stuff like
"cruel ulysses" (line 368 of book 3) and "hard ulysses" (line 992 of book 2).
None of the other greeks are given this sort of extra attention, and it sort
of caught my eye. anyone make anything of it?
Name: Jill Concannon
Username: jconcann
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Mon Sep 23 23:37:25 EDT 1996
Comments:
I was thinking about Dido. She seems neither a weak woman overly concerned
with finding a man (notice how she refused to marry to her worldly advantage
several other times, to men with cities of their own), nor a stoic woman, too
strong to kill herself when Aeneas betrays her. Virgil gives her Roman virtues-
the gift of oration, queenliness, godliness- he would have hardly put so
distinctively Roman virtues in an onworthy object. Maybe she emphasizes the
influence of one's fate- which was thought to be inescapeable- as I think
someone said (cassie?), Venus made her love Aeneas, made her marry him,
and it was one of her roles to be destroyed by him. Maybe Dido symbolizes
Carthage and its destruction by powerful Rome- you'll notice Dido kills herself
with the "Dardan sword"- Aeneas' sword. Any thoughts on this? Dido
is really puzzling.
Name: Genevieve Johnson
Username: gjohnson@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Random musings
Date: Tue Sep 24 11:08:25 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hey all,
I was rather surprised by the backlash against Dido. To me, her need of
Aeneas does not reveal weakness or submission. Through no fault of
her own, she loved the man. Dido was a strong and powerful leader but she
lost part of her control when she fell in love with Aeneas. The violence of
her reaction to his departure, I think, was a way of regaining some of her
dignity and reclaiming her lost control. She couldn't stop Aeneas from
leaving but she could make sure that her own fate was in her hands. She
chose death because it was the only way to regain her dignity. She couldn't
live with the despair and shame. Yes, in a way, it was weak of her not to
try and overcome this pain, but when you examine the intensity of her passion,
it doesn't seem realistic that she would ever "get over" the experience.
Love damaged her. But that doesn't make her character "weak." My two cents,
anyway <:
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Pg. 52, line 728
Date: Tue Sep 24 14:32:56 EDT 1996
Comments:
In one of our previous classes (September 19, 1996) we discussed the
signifigance of the last line in Priam's death scene (pg.52). "On the
distant shore the vast trunk lies headless without a name." I'd like to
advance a theory on why Virgil remains ambiguous on the final resting
place of Priam's body (which, of course, is symbolic of Troy). By veiling
the location, Virgil elevates Troy to mythical proportions. Since one cannot
pinpoint the exact resting place of its citadels, it is technically
onmnipresent-- it could be anywhere. In this manner, it lives on in the
hearts of men. An example of this theory is King Arthur. No one knows
where his body lies or, for that matter, where his grave is. It could
be anywhere in England. The exact location of Camelot is also uncertain.
These mythical places are analogous to Troy. An epic is a form of myth.
By refusing to name Troy's resting place, Virgil perpetuates the myth.
Name: Peter Briggs
Username: pbriggs@ada.brynmawr.edu
Subject: Cities and Towers
Date: Wed Sep 25 09:31:53 EDT 1996
Comments:
I am intrigued at Susan Hom's suggestion that the building of cities
in the Aeneid might be tied to a human desire to be closer in status and
power to the aloof gods on Olympus. It seems to me that cities, and
particularly city walls and towers, have a double and divided
significance in this epic: on one hand they are emblems of civility and
human accomplishment, while on the other they are perpetually on the verge
of becoming emblems of pride-going-before-a-fall. Aspiring to be closer
to the gods is a dangerous pastime, yes? Cheers, PMB
Name: Joni Saloom
Username: jsaloom
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Sun Sep 29 16:34:19 EDT 1996
Comments:
Que pasa amigas? It is that fateful Sunday
afternoon and I have dragged myself to the
computer lab to type entry 2 on here as well
as to type my paper on the Underworld. A thought
came to me in class on Thursday that I felt like bringing
up, but Mr. Briggs was on a roll. I know I'm going to get
crucified for writing this but there are obviously two types
of books, those for the adventure seeking boys will be boys types
such as A Separate Peace and Huckleberry Finn, and those emotionally
sensitive romances such as Jane Eyre and Return of the Native. I think
it is interesting that The Aeneid fulfills both categories of writing,
targeting a coed audience. Aeneas is the typical male stud rolemodel and
Dido is what every girl wants to be like, rich, powerful,beautiful, did I
mention rich, that is until she falls for Aeneas and torches herself.
Hasta luego mis compañeros.
Name: clio stearns
Username: cstearns@brynmawr.edu
Subject: the tempest
Date: Mon Sep 30 18:56:53 EDT 1996
Comments:
hi... i'm assuming it's ok to change the subject? so what does everyone
think of the tempest? i have a question about prospero. this might be a
dumb question, but are we really supposed to believe that he has the power
to raise the storm himself? if so, how are we supposed to think that he
got these powers? and if not, are we supposed to believe that miranda
believes him? (sorry, that was kind of convoluted.)
the other thing is that i was just wondering if anyone has any suggestions
on how to handle the reading of this play? i've always had trouble managing
things where there are billions of notes per page; i don't know whether i
should just read straight through and then look at the notes, or look at
each note as i hit it, or what. if anyone has suggestions, i'd really
appreciate it... i know that's kind of a remedial question, but oh well.
happy reading, and i'll see you all tomorrow! :)
Name: Susan Hom
Username: shom@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Aeneid
Date: Mon Sep 30 22:27:06 EDT 1996
Comments:
One last look at The Aeneid. Hmmmmm "Is Hell a state of mind?"
If it is a state of mind, then poor Aeneas has been in and out of hell.
The traumatic experience of Troy is a continuous hellish memory which Aeneas
relives throughout the book, every time someone asks him to recount
his past. It is an "albatross around his neck".
Then maybe Dido was his saviour because she brought him out of
that nightmare by her deep understanding of his misery. Therefore their
marriage was "heaven" because it was a nurturing, positive, loving
state of mind.
Name: Herta Baurkot
Username: hbaurkot.@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Tempest
Date: Tue Oct 1 15:38:09 EDT 1996
Comments:
Are we supposed to like Prospero? I do not know about everyone else but
personally I think that he has a control problem. He did have a rough time
with his brother but I do not think that is an exuse for his behavior. Maybe
I am being to hard on him but does he have any redeaming qualities?
Name: kate olsen
Username: colsen@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Iris and Ceres
Date: Tue Oct 1 19:19:20 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone. As I was reading The Tempest tonight, I noticed that
Ceres, Juno, and Iris speak in rhyming verse. This reminded me of Ariel
in that he is associated with poetry, song, music, and dance. These
are all more feminine qualities and are associated with romance and
love. It seems to me that Shakespeare has Juno, Iris, and Ceres
speak in verse because they are blessing Miranda and Ferdinand's
marriage. Their language and the way they speak emphasize love and the
lovers' idealness. Also, I recommend reading straight through a page
and then glancing at the notes to see if there as anything you missed.
I have found that I understand most everything without the notes.
Happy reading!
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Authority/Prospero
Date: Thu Oct 3 15:16:55 EDT 1996
Comments:
One common theme threaded throughout The Tempest is the idea of authority,
more specifically the usurptation of it by a lower denominator.
In discussing the examples of the Boatswain/Gonzalo and Trinoculo/Stephano
and Caliban, I hit upon another one, perhaps the greatest example of all:
Prospero. I am not just referring to his manipulations of the character's
lives, including King Alonso. I am more concerned with his control over
nature, especially over the tempest itself. After all isn't nature the
greatest force of all? In twisting it to fit his own ends, Prospero is
guilty of abusing the highest power mentioned in the play. In Mythology,
the Gods were the only ones capable of controlling nature. Thus, Prospero's
machinations elevate him to god-like status.
Name: Jill Concannon
Username: jconcann
Subject: Caliban
Date: Thu Oct 3 16:25:02 EDT 1996
Comments:
I was just thinking about Caliban. He always refers to the island as
"his island" that was taken from him by Prospero. But did he ever own it?
First it was his mother's, then Prospero's. . . never expressly his.
Nothing seems to be in his control‹ interesting, that as soon as he
asserted his independence from the tyrant, Prospero, that he offered
to be Stephano's slave- are there some people destined to be ruled by others?
Also, I seem to remember something about "Caliban" being from the latin
word for "hot"- or maybe not. Latin class was a long time ago.---Jill
Name: Joni Saloom
Username: jsaloom
Subject: The Tempest
Date: Sun Oct 6 16:19:42 EDT 1996
Comments:
Well it's another bloody Sunday in the computer lab so
here I am. Okay, so we're on The Tempest now. Basically, I
think Prospero is just another tyrant who eventually comes
to see the error of his ways and everything is just groovy like
the ending to a Partridge Family episode. Seriously though, I
understand what Jill had to say about born leaders, but at the
same time I feel Caliban's pain. There is an implied order that
Sycorax was in control of the island and it would only be natural
for Caliban, being the troll-like and foul creature that he was, to
inherit the island. As crazy as that sounds Caliban does address the
issue that if he had access to the same books as Prospero he could be
a big shot magician/tyrant as well. Is it just me or does anyone else
notice the mental abuse Prospero inflicts on Caliban. "Thou poisonous slave,
got by the devil himself, upon thy wicked dam, come forth!" Hello, can
we say product of environment boys and girls? By the way, did anyone
else find humor while at the same time repulsion in Caliban's little comment,
"Thou didst prevent me. I had peopled else this isle with Calibans?"
Name: ji-sun yi
Username: jsyi@brynmawr.edu
Subject: the tempest
Date: Sun Oct 6 23:35:33 EDT 1996
Comments:
I am confused about who Ceres, Iris, and Juno are. Are they spirits like
Ariel? I was also disappointed with the ending of the play. I was expecting
a more exciting confrontation between King Alonso, Antonio, Sebastian, and
Prospero. But the play ended up with Prospero forgiving everyone. Like Joni
I also sympathize with Caliban. I think the island is rightfully his,
because it first belonged to his mother Sycorax. I think Caliban's
bitterness and brutish behavior is a result of Prospero's taking over of the
island.
Name: Cassie Chow
Username: cchow@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Tempest
Date: Sun Oct 6 23:50:52 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone. I wanted to say that I agree with ji-sun yi and Joni. After all, don't you all consider your parents home your home too. Caliban's home is the island and he lived there with his mother. Even if the island was not expressly his in his heart he thout of it as his island and his home. He has every right to be angry with Prospero as far as he is concerned, his home has been taken, and he has been made a slave. He may be a monster but he's still capable of loving.
Name: Cassie Chow
Username: cchow@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Tempest
Date: Mon Oct 7 00:01:08 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hello again. I needed to post another comment to keep up. First I wanted to
apologize for the major grammer and spelling errors in my previous comment.
I simply typed the message and posted it instead of looking it over. I, like
some others who posted comments, was not enamoured with Prospero. I'm not sure
what it was about him, but I really didn't like him. I thought he was especially
cruel to Caliban and I didn't like the way he dealt with Ariel. A promise is
a promise; he should have set him free. He seems like the kind of person that
only does things that benefit himself. He does not care that he promised Ariel
that he would free him, he only cares that he avenges his exile. I understand
where his anger or need for revenge comes from, but that doesn't validate
his decision to ignore his former promises.
Name: kate olsen
Username: colsen@brynmawr.edu
Subject: prospero and caliban
Date: Mon Oct 7 13:07:19 EDT 1996
Comments:
I agree with everyone about how Prospero dominates and opresses Caliban
and that the island is rightfully Caliban's. However, Prospero is an
example of colinization and a mild form of an empire if you will. It
is the typical situation of the strong dominating the weak. It doesn't
matter who is right and who is abusing power if the abuser does not run
into any opposition. Caliban can complain, but until he acts against
Prospero, he will continue in the same state. Prospero acts much like
Britain did in the colonization of America and how we did towards the
native americans. A new power arrives and believes they are better
because the "natives" are different. Another example are missionaries
who believe they must convert the "savages". this is seen hen Prospero
and Miranda teach Caliban their language and customs. Prospero has a
common outlook on the social order of the world.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Masque
Date: Mon Oct 7 15:45:35 EDT 1996
Comments:
In preparation for tomorrow's class, I thought I'd make a few remarks
on the signifigance of the masque.
The masque is a ceremony. In The Tempest, it's given religious overtones
with the appearance of the goddesses. I believe this purpose is seemingly
analagous to the purpose of all the ritual sacrifices performed in The
Aeneid. A sacrifice was symbolic of order, it was an example of control
in a chaotic world. One of the theme's throughout The Tempest is disorder.
Perhaps the Masque can be viewed as an attempt to impose order on an
unstable world.
Name: Genevieve Johnson
Username: gjohnson@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Disappointed with Ending
Date: Tue Oct 8 12:46:08 EDT 1996
Comments:
I was expecting a bit more of a confrontation at the end. Prospero
seemed so intent on retribution and revenge, I just assumed that he
would carry out his plan to the extreme. I did, however, appreciate
Prospero's speech to the audience, the "epilogue" of the play. It
struck me as something different, a departure from the play.
I have to wonder how Prospero feels about giving up his magic. His
books and wizardry were consumed his life for 12 years, I can't
believe that he'd be so willing to give them up.
The suggestions for further reading really intrigued me. W.H.
Auden takes on the idea of a resolution to the question of Prospero's
feelings. I'd be interested in reading "The Sea and the Mirror,"
which has Prospero explaining his feelings to Ariel as he packs to
leave. Maybe I'm just one who would like to discover what happens
after the story ends. Anybody else interested in this?
Name: Joni Faith Saloom
Username: jsaloom
Subject: Windsor-Forest
Date: Thu Oct 10 19:40:10 EDT 1996
Comments:
First of all, I would like to congratulate Susan
on her initiative in the Jane Austen Society and Clio
on her very down-to-earth, but nevertheless profound
article in the Bi-College News. Secondly, I would like
to comment on Windsor-Forest. Upon first reading I was
convinced the piece was nothing more than a tree-hugging
replica of Thoreau's Walden (of course it could have just
been due to the fact that it was after midnight and I really
just wanted to finish reading rather than search for meaning).
Once again, however, I was amazed at the meaning I found under
Mr.Brigg's guidance in class. I definitely noticed Pope's attempts
at giving Windsor Romanesque qualities. Repeated references to
gods/goddesses, spritely characters and other deities as well as
referring to the forest as "august" represents beauty, glory, and
a return to nature. The muses and emphasis on the sister arts
often associated with Greco-Roman culture represent creativity and
provide a contrast to references of subjugation and empiricism with
examples of Norman conquests. This dualism of the arts and military
feats show how two completely different aspects of civilization can
provide "order in variety." I guess I've rambled too much, so I'll
quit now. By the way, everyone remember submissions to the Tesseract,
campus literary magazine, are due October 16.
Name: Joni Faith Saloom
Username: jsaloom
Subject: clarification
Date: Thu Oct 10 19:48:14 EDT 1996
Comments:
I just wanted to regress on the subject of The Tempest.
I provided a harsh argument against Prospero's character in
class and in my last paper entitled Prospero's Tyranny. I just
want to clarify that I don't think Prospero was a bad leader, nor
do I think that his intentions were dishonorable. However, I had
to find a problematic situation and and argument to go with it.
As Michelle mentioned in class, Prospero was truly the only main
character, so I chose to attack his downfall.
Name: Joni
Username: jSaloom
Subject: Incidents in the Life
Date: Sun Oct 20 16:48:56 EDT 1996
Comments:
Welcome back everyone! Only 1 more month to go until the next
break and only 3 or 4 more English papers to turn in. It really
seems like I'm dominating this chat forum as of recently, but after
that reprimanding in class about the lack of participation I was prompted
to action. I started reading Incidents and it is definitely a change
in style from the other works we've been reading. The part that
horrified me the most was the snaky swamp Harriet had to hide in and
the time she hid in the bushes and got bit by a reptile. Reading that
was enough to give anyone beastly nightmares. I also find it astonishing
that Harriet was able to live in a claustrophobic nightmare of a shed
enduring the oppressive heat of the south and brutal southeast winters.
I also find it humorous that an uneducated slave could have so much
sardonic wit. The entire book is filled with satirical tones of oppression
and warped idels of Christianity, civility, and education. I think together
Harriet Jacobs and Flannery O'Connor would've made a great team.
Name: ji-sun yi
Username: jsyi@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Incidents
Date: Sun Oct 20 20:31:32 EDT 1996
Comments:
To be honest, I don't usually read introductions of books because they
usually tell you the whole story. Other than that, I'm really enjoying this
book so far. I haven't been able to put it down! But the chapter I want to
talk about is 10, "A Perilous Passage in the Slave Girl's Life." When I
first read in the introduction of how Harriet had an affair with the single
white lawyer, I have to admit that at first I judged her with disapproval. I
didn't understand why she had to have an affair with him. But when I read
chp. 10, I was really moved by how she practically begged the reader to
forgive her. When she said, "O virtuous reader! You never knew what it
is to be a slave; to be entirely unprotected by law or custom; to have the
laws reduce you to the condition of a chattel, entirely subject to the will
of another," my heart melted and I mourned for her. I also like how the
novel doesn't just focus on her life, but tells incidents of other female
slaves. Another one of my favorite passages is when Harriet tells the
reader that she hopes we never know what it's like to hate, and that hate is
like the "atmosphere of hell." I like how the author addresses the reader--
that's really rare to find in a novel. I feel more involved in the story,
and she's specifically talking to me.
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject: Incidents
Date: Tue Oct 22 04:47:33 EDT 1996
Comments:
I am extremely impressed with the writing style of Ms. Jacobs. She adapts her style to each subject she discusses. When writing about the abhorrent conditions of slaves, she addresses the reader directly and pleads him/her to become active in helping the slaves. When giving information concerning specifc events, she sometimes uses a very matter of fact style and other times writes very romantically. This ability to readily switch from one literary device to another only enhances an already awe-inspiring story.
Name: Joni
Username: jsaloom
Subject: Windsor Forest
Date: Thu Oct 24 19:43:46 EDT 1996
Comments:
Hola chicas,
I was contemplating the significance of twenty lines that
were dedicated to rivers in Windsor Forest in class the other day.
It seems to me as though the many small tributaries mentioned
that flow into the Thames represent the common people of England
and the powerful force that they contribute to, or the English
monarch would cease to exist without them. Just as Virgil incorporated
politics into the Aeneid to brownose the emperor, Pope may be
glorifying the English monarchy. Someone mentioned the Thames as
being the center of life, much like the source of a fountain. The
Thames, in my opinion, represents the English Fountainhead. By the
way, a very strange coincidence occurred in class the other day.
Mr. Briggs and Susan both said the word "discombobulated." I hadn't
heard the word in like 5 years and thought the incident to have been
quite strange (coincidence, I think not)!
Name: Joni
Username: jsaloom
Subject: Wordsworth
Date: Wed Oct 30 20:52:52 EST 1996
Comments:
It seems to me as if I've found a soulmate in reading Tintern Abbey and
sampling The Prelude. Wordsworth has an amazing ability in describing
the very forces he describes as "invisible" to the human eye , but "yet
liveth to the heart." I interpret his narrative to mean that the flavor
and color of life is a sensory experience much like the world of a baby and
consists entirely of moods and tones that characterize our experiences in
life. This piece is truly profound in that I was able to empathize with
every word. I think he knew that he was expressing universal feelings that
people, especially men, are afraid to discuss when he wrote, "So be it, if
the pure of heart be prompt to follow,...Support, as heretofore, my fainting steps."
I also thought it quite ironic that his college experience at Cambridge
and his disillusioned and contemplative thoughts was similar to what we, as
freshmen are experiencing here at Bryn Mawr, modelled after the same type of
establishment as Cambridge. Mr. Briggs, did you plan this? I also picked
up a great word in this text to describe that retrospective memory bank in
our brain to which we all sometimes regress, "cavern." I too sometimes
experience that longing to return to the magical stage of adolescence in
which the thought of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny sent tingling thrills
up my spine. I was honestly surprised that this text read so easily. I
must admit that I'd heard it was really dull. What makes this piece sparkle
in comparison to something like Walden is that it isn't necessarily
glorifying nature, which has been done way too many times, but rather uses
it as a controlling metaphor to associate elements in nature to very
specific sensory and emotional experiences in life. Sorry if I bored
anyone too much, I was just very invigorated by this particular piece.
Name: clio stearns
Username: cstearns@brynmawr.edu
Subject: wordsworth
Date: Thu Oct 31 21:50:07 EST 1996
Comments:
Sorry girls; I just have to succumb to my bad humor tempation to start this
thing off and pose the question: are all of these words really worth it? Ew,
ew, ew, I'm really sorry about that. I just couldn't resist. Yuk.
But honestly, that kind of is my question. I have some problems with the
whole nature of the book because I think it would be much more effective were
it broken down into many short poems-- like the rowboat episode we went over
today, the segment on the babe, and billions of other passages which are
powerful on their own but fade in the vast scheme of things. This is kind
of a generic comment, I guess, but it's something I've been pondering because
I guess I've always thought that much the beauty in poetry lay in its ability
to capture huge things in small spaces. What is the point of long, long
poetry like this? Does anyone else have similar feelings or comments? Any-
way, I'm leaving now; sorry again for that bad pun. I think it has to do with
some deep-down freudian thing that drives me to make jokes even worse than
the ones my father makes with regularity. And believe me, that isn't easy.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Incidents....
Date: Sun Nov 3 13:38:53 EST 1996
Comments:
I know that it's a little late to be posting about "Incidents..." but
since we are revising our papers, I thought the topic was still
relevant. I reread the intro and noticed that the town Jacobs lived in
was named "Edenton." "Edenton," as in "Eden," is an interesting detail to
note because it supports many of the ideas Jacobs tries to establish. For
example, she says that for the first six years of her life she was happy
until she discovered that she was a slave. It was satan aka Dr. Flint,
who triggered this awareness. Jacobs was living in an "Eden" until the
snake cast her out.
This idea, like many of the works we've read, reminds me of "Paradise Lost."
I can't wait until we read it next semester, so we can discuss these themes
further.
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject:
Date: Sun Nov 3 18:06:35 EST 1996
Comments:
Name: ji-sun yi
Username: jsyi@brynmawr.edu
Subject: prelude
Date: Sun Nov 3 18:10:45 EST 1996
Comments:
I really enjoy Wordsworth's writing style--his imagery is so vivid. But
I'm having a hard time reading this poem. I'm not very good at reading/
understanding poetry.
Name: Joni
Username: jsaloom
Subject: More Prelude
Date: Wed Nov 6 19:42:06 EST 1996
Comments:
Where can I begin to start? There is so much to say and
so many words to say it with. First of all I would like to
comment on the passage we analysed about geometry. I,
as a total anti-mathematician, believe that he was simply
trying to convey his interpretation of the world as a
sensory experience in which everything is composed of
the shapes that are so vivid and crucial, like colors, and
feelings, in the life of a baby. I think that he wants to
revive the innocence of the non-perceptive babe that he
continuously refers to. I was also wondering if anyone
noticed the "cult of Mary" like implications Wordsworth
presents. He refers to "granddame Mother Earth" and
shows reverence when discussing all the women in
this particular piece. He holds the"mother and child" relationship as something sacred
. I found another great word to use
at my disposal, circumambient world. Another major
theme I pick up on is the "world of poesy" to which he
seems to feel himself trapped in and stifled by. I kept
thinking about "the lunatic, the lover, the poet," while
reading this. Today at lunch my friend told me that
poets used to be regarded as mediators between God
and humanity, transcendentalists. That made me think
of Wordsworth's theory on immortality. "Like that of
angels or commissioned spirits, Fix us upon some lofty
pinnacle" is a quote I read after I had that conversation.
Although I don't know much about the social milieu of
this poem, I did find traces that exemplified the "Age of
the Beautiful Death" perfectly. If interested see page
177. Mr.Briggs brought up creative energy and I was
thinking that Wordsworth portrays this source(ironically
more water imagery) as elusive as the water he refers to.
It is interesting that water chiseled all the prominent
landscapes that he uses as metaphors to his experiences.
It seems as though there is an underlying metaphor of
looking at ones experiences and realizations, "spots of
time" as visible prominent landmarks on ones face or
personality/outlook on life. If you actually read to this
point, thanks for listening to my thoughts.
Name: kate olsen
Username: colsen
Subject: Wordsworth
Date: Mon Nov 11 15:48:32 EST 1996
Comments:
I agree with Cleo that some of the more profound and enlightening passages of the Prelude are subdued by the other material. It would be easier to grasp their true meaning and his poem would better follow the "rules" of poetry if the poem was broken into smaller poems. However, The Prelude is an original piece and it is a poem that follows Wordsworth's life. Our lives are continuous and we do not only live the exciting or trying parts, we live every experience and moment. Therefore, wordsworth's life becomes the format for his poem; all the parts are included. Also, his point about the moments of true understanding and genius helping him live through less dynamic times is shown in his inclusion of the less important moments. I have been reading Dorothy's journals and it seems to me that she had a great connection with her brother. Her observations are similar in depth to his and I can easily see how Wordsworth was helped by her and how her journals could spark his memory and compliment his thoughts.
Name: Jill Concannon
Username: jconcann
Subject: The Prelude
Date: Mon Nov 11 23:13:50 EST 1996
Comments:
While I can't match Joni for length, I just wanted to put down a few
of my thoughts about the Prelude. I've been interested in the role
of the city, which is flushed out, I think, in books 12 and 13. It
seems a place where those "spots of time" cannot happen; where
people are detached from the "universal heart" which is found
"among the best of those who live". It might be a good paper topic. .
I think we have to write one for next week.
Also note the instances where he has altered ideas to make them
more Christian‹ he reverences exaltation "by humble faith" in 1850 and
makes references to "piety ordained," as opposed to the 1805 references
to the "soul" (Book 12).
Name: Clio Stearns
Username: cstearns@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Jane Eyre
Date: Sun Nov 17 18:29:05 EST 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone... I'm wondering about the use of first person in _Jane Eyre_. I
guess maybe it's reading this right after _The Prelude_ and _Incidents_ that
makes me wonder about this, but it seems strange to be reading something
that's not strictly autobiography (that is, it's fictional) but still uses
"I". What do all of you think the book would be like if it were in third
person? Maybe it's a ploy for sympathy in a way; I guess we're more likely
to feel for Jane if we're hearing her voice directly. But it definitely
makes it confusing to try to get a clear sense of the other characters, like
Mr. Rochester. Because in Harriet Jacobs, we knew we were getting Harriet's
take on people that really existed, but in this and other books like it, the
other characters don't even have objective realities, so it's hard to
interpret them. Anyway, that's all I have to say...
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject: Jane Eyre
Date: Sun Nov 17 19:37:08 EST 1996
Comments:
I don't know if it is reading the first person narrative that makes
the book so easy to read or if it is simply the change from reading
poetry to fiction. I haven't really read any of the Brontes' works
before this excpet for Emily's "Wuthering Heights". I wasn't
completely enamored with that book and so I began reading Jane Eyre
with some trepidation. It's easy reading, though. Maybe I'm into the
book because the heroine is pitted against so many injustices - I find
that I can really sympathize with Jane. Anyway, I wish you all
pleasant reading.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: The Prelude
Date: Mon Nov 18 11:37:27 EST 1996
Comments:
I agree with Jill's remarks about the city being a place where spots of time
cannot happen. Wordsworth takes great pains to emphasize the link
between the fluid flow of creative energies and "moments of
unremembered pleasure" ie the spots of time. The city, with St.
Bartholomew's Fair, features recurrent "spots of time," destroying
the uniqueness of the experience. This dulls the imagination, for it
robs it of its purpose. The imagining, as we stated in class, has already
been done and it has been done often.
Name: Susan Hom
Username: shom@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice
Date: Thu Nov 21 00:25:01 EST 1996
Comments:
Hi everyone,
The computer keys from Erdman 101 have been silent for too long...
Last class, Jane Austen was mentioned in comparison to Charlotte Bronte.
Since then, I have been pondering over some similarities and differences
between the two authors and their two major works PRIDE AND PREJUDICE and
JANE EYRE respectively.
Jane Austen's books are mainly about marriage, manners and society,
and are more sensible and "down to earth"; whereas, in JANE EYRE, Charlotte
Bronte focuses on the human spirit and moral issues. Austen's leading
characters lack the same emotional intensity and urgency of Bronte's main
characters. Scenes such as the passionate confession in the garden in JANE
EYRE never occur between Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth. Their language is more
implied. Mr.Darcy loves and admires her. During his first proposal scene,
he does admit that he can not bear surpessing his love for her but his
statement is less emotional compared to Mr. Rochester's statement that there
is a string tied from his rib to hers and if she leaves it will snap and
he would bleed inwardly. ( In my addition of PRIDE AND PREJUDICE there is
a critique of Jane Austen's writing by Charlotte Bronte which I will try
to find so I can share it with you.)
One similaritie is that both Mr. Rochester and Mr. Darcy first become
attracted to the heroines because of their fascinating eyes. Mr. Darcy is
drawn towards Elizabeth's "fine eyes". She has a vivacious spirit, wit, and
sense of humor which are reflected in her eyes. Jane has quiet intense eyes
which interest Mr. Rochester. Both men also are intrigued by the witty
responses to their sharp remarks. This is a trait that they have never seen before in any other woman.
Name: Joni Saloom
Username: jsaloom
Subject: Jane Eyre
Date: Sun Nov 24 18:59:32 EST 1996
Comments:
Greetings from the computer lab! I don't really have
much to say about Jane Eyre aside from what we
discuss in class. But I feel the relationship shared
between Adele and Jane is worth expanding on. I really
think that Bronte successfully uses the "authorial
technique" of situational coincidence to enhance the
motherly/daughterly relationship between the two. The
fact that they are both orphans connects them. I also
think it is interesting to note that their character traits
are foils. Adele is everything Jane isn't, frivolous,
impulsive, flambuoyant, and beautiful. However,
the contrast works nicely because they are able to adopt
a little bit of each other's personalities to attain a
happy medium. There seems to be a pattern of "ironical
oppositions" in the book that influence Jane. Helen
Burns was pious, accepting, and enduring when Jane
was fiery, passionate, and impulsive. John Rivers was
another pole in the continuum of Bronte's characters that
had an impact on Jane with her teaching. Well, my
original point was that I found the relationship between
Adele and Jane touching and I'm glad Adele got to have
Jane as a mommy! By the way, can anyone defend
Rochester as a Byronic hero? We always discussed him
as one and I can't remember why?
Name: Genevieve Johnson
Username: gjohnson@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Jane Eyre
Date: Mon Dec 2 13:24:42 EST 1996
Comments:
Let me apologize in advance for any incoherence found in this entry -
my brain is currently running on TheraFlu and orange juice. I also
found the idea of "ironical oppositions" intriguing. It was
interesting to the note the superficial differences in apperance
between Jane and some of the other characters. I like the deeper
implication that it was only with one of her own kind, could she find
happiness and the occasion to realize both parts of her soul - the
pious and the passionate. Jane was drawn to St John and his mission
in life - she wanted to help others. She was almost prepared to
abandon half of herself - her passionate and very human nature - in
order to fulfill this desire to be of use, and to help others as she
felt God needed her to. By marrying Rochester, I believe that she
realized both sides of her nature. She needed to feel love and she
needed to be needed. Marriage to St John, or rather, to his position,
would not enable her to do so.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Historical Facts
Date: Tue Dec 3 15:08:53 EST 1996
Comments:
I love history and since the idea of history is central ito Virginia
Woolf's Between The Acts, I feel compelled to correct some false historical
dates given to us in class today (12/3/96) on Napoleon and the Battle of
Waterloo.
Prof. Briggs erred when he told us that Waterloo occured in the year 1812.
I believe he may have confused that battle year(1815) with this equally
important year in Napoleonic history. In 1812 Napoleon invaded Russia
with his 500,000-strong Grand Armee, after Czar Alex I refused to support
the Continental System. Napoleon entered Moscow, but the brutal winter and lack
of supplies forced him to begin a disastrous retreat that signaled his
eventual downfall.
Prof. Briggs alluded to a famous musical composition written to commemorate the
year. I believe he was referring to Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture," which
was written to celebrate the Russian defeat of the Napoleonic invasion
(symbolized by the victorous cannons and bells prominent in the piece).
The symphony was first performed in 1882.
The allies defeated Napoleon and took Paris in March of 1814. Napoleon
abdicated and was exiled to the island of Elba. After the First Peace of
Paris, he escaped exile and marched on Paris. King Louis XVIII fled, and
Napoleon ruled during the period known throughout history as the Hundred Days. He was defeated decisively in
the Waterloo Campaign (June 12-18, 1815), and abdicated again. Sent as a
prisoner of war to the British island of St. Helena, he died there of cancer
on May 5, 1821.
Sorry this took so long, but I thought it was important and interesting.
Name: Peter Briggs
Username: pbriggs@ada.brynmawr.edu
Subject: Mea Culpa
Date: Wed Dec 4 09:17:05 EST 1996
Comments:
Mea culpa, mea culpa. Elizabeth is right to correct the misinformation I offered
in class yesterday. Napoleon's march on Moscow was in 1812, while the battle at Waterloo
was in 1815. Shows the danger (if any illustration were needed) of recalling dates
off the top of one's head. Cheers, PMB
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Have a great break!
Date: Tue Dec 10 14:51:45 EST 1996
Comments:
I hope everyone has a wonderful winter break. Good luch with finals. See you next semester to discuss "Jazz!"
Name: Peter Briggs
Username: pbriggs@ada.brynmawr.edu
Subject: Best wishes to all
Date: Fri Dec 20 09:34:22 EST 1996
Comments:
We made it, we made it! Happy holidays to all, and best wishes for a long,
safe, and restful break. I look forward to all the good readings we'll be discussing together in the New Year
Be of good cheer and to all a good night, PMB
Name: Susan Hom
Username: shom@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Connections & Style
Date: Wed Jan 22 16:32:19 EST 1997
Comments:
What intrigues me most about Toni Morrison's style is her ability to
make seemingly disconnected stories and characters piece together. I think
it is very clever to have the end and beginnigs of the adjacent chapters or
separate passages speak to each other (almost in the same way that the two mountain passages
in Wordsworth's "The Prelude" carried a dialouge with each other.) For example,
often, key words are repeated or a question is posed and then the next sentence
answers it.
page 184 But where is SHE?
page 187 There she is.
page 193 I don't know who is singing but I know the words by heart.
page 195 Sweetheart. That's what that weather was called.
This example demonstrates Toni Morrison's ability to juxtapose continuity
and discontinuity. There is a repetition in sound but there is also an abrupt
change in topic.
A Stephen Sondheim song from "Into the Woods" comes to mind. It is called
"No One Is Alone" and it expresses how everyone is connected and how someone's
actions affect others. I also see a similar theme in "Jazz". Each person's
history (their relatives' actions for example) affect their lives.
Their disfunctional childhoods cause each character to search for a connection with another person to fill a void.
Violet tries to find a connection with Dorcas to explain to herself why Joe
left her. She ends up finding a friend in Alice. Joe searches for his mother.
Dorcas looks for a father and lover figure in Joe because her parents died
when she was young. It's like a rippling effect.
Name: Joni
Username:
Subject: Jazz
Date: Wed Jan 22 19:37:24 EST 1997
Comments:
Well, here we go again with another exciting semester of liberal studies!
I must admit that I was cynical about reading a Toni Morrison novel, but after
reading Jazz I feel like sticking my foot in my mouth (not much new on that
front). I agree with Mr. Briggs that the City is portrayed as a major
character. The City and the mystique that surrounds it in the famous Jazz
Age plays a major role in the fate of its inhabitants, much like the heath
in Return of the Native. I was also reminded of The Prelude when Morrison
described how springtime in the city made a bunch of strangers look at each
other for once much like Wordsworth described the busy Londoners.I really
think that Morrison's structure works well here in that it allowed me to
read the novel as a dramatization. I could envision every sequence of events
happening like a soap opera in my head. Perhaps what I admired the most about
this very real and down to earth novel was the creative technique of rhythm
that Morrison used as a complement to her chronicle about a very rhythmic
age of jazz, blues, and sensuality. The first paragraph on page 60 is a
perfect example of this rhythmic and sensual quality. I will try to always
remember a profound thought that I read on page 113; "that laughter is
serious. More complicated, more serious than tears." I would like to
elaborate on Mr. Brigg's question of the appeal of the City (which every
native New Yorker I have ever met refers to it as as if no other city exists)
as opposed to the country. The City with all its violence, noise, and
lusty sin, appeals to the dark side that every human being is intrigued by.
The Jazz Age was the precursor to the birth of rock and roll, that explains
the emphasis on volumptuous hips and sexuality in this novel. I think it is
important to notice that a lot of misplaced children flock to the City as
adults because it is a community of dysfunctional families and qualities.
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject: abstractions
Date: Thu Jan 30 11:25:56 EST 1997
Comments:
hi everyone! it's right before class so probably no one's going to read
this for a while, but i wanted to post anyway. first of all, i've been
thinking a lot about tuesday's discussion, and i kind of just wanted to let
you all know that i really got a lot out of what everyone had to say. i
mean, when we're very little, we learn that the purpose of language is to
communicate, and i guess i've always sort of understood that on a very
tangible level: like, i tell you what's going on using words, you understand
it, and presto, we've communicated. but tuesday really made me realize how
much more complex and beautiful it is than that: the power of language in
those creation stories really illustrates the fact that language translates
into a complex set of responses. the writer says god said "let there be
light", and the reader understands light as it applies to her, and then the
writer shows that some force understood light and thus created it, and the
reader understands that god used words to create this thing that has its very
own meaning with respect to the reader's own life... so basically, the
wielder of language really can use it to connect anyone who is taking it in
to any other sort of perception or character. so when we say we use language
to communicate, what we really mean is that it molds us together in a very
deep-down sort of way.
hmmm. that was really just a rephrasing of the things that other people
already got on tuesday, but i was so excited about grasping it that i had to
share.
the other thing (i know this is long) is that i was really interested in the
use of religion as a sort of aesthetic gem in god's trombones... like, it
really seemed way more like poetry than faith, and i was drawn into the
poetry side of it much more than the religion-- but then when i finished,
it seemed really strange to me to think of religion in that light. maybe it's
just because i've never had a religious background at all-- does anyone
have thoughts?
sorry this was so long. -clio
Name: Joni
Username:
Subject: creation
Date: Thu Jan 30 21:49:18 EST 1997
Comments:
I hate to dominate our forum for fear of getting on anyone's nerves, but
I try to put a response in every week since expression in class is limited.
I just thought it was interesting that Ovid's account seemed very scientific
and elemental as opposed to Johnson's very ethnic and metaphorical account
and Norton/Milton's very eloquent and Biblical account. It just proves
what Clio wrote above about the many different interpretations a writer or
an orator can push on his audience. I was also wondering if anyone else
was having trouble studying Biblical material as mythology. I thought it
was quite comical that the analysis for literary depth became so extreme
people seemed to forget that the serpent was really Satan disguised. I
think that sometimes a Bible story is just a Bible story and I don't
really want to try to analyze it to a pulp because it changes the whole
concept.I found Kate's question as tho who the we referred to interesting
because I was wondering exactly the same thing. The fact of the matter is
that no one truly knows what Milton meant by we, but we are all entitled to our
own opinions about what that might mean and need to be considerate and
tolerant of this in our discussions.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Connections
Date: Fri Jan 31 11:42:22 EST 1997
Comments:
I completely agree with Susan's wonderful post on the recurring connections
in Jazz. This technique helps foster the ambiguous feelings that surface
in the reader regarding the morality of each character. For example, we
enter the novel despising Joe but later come to gain sympathy for him.
Morrison describes a scene allowing us to draw one conclusion, than confuses us
by retelling the same actions with different motivations. This process causes
us to suspend moral judgements on the characters and leaves us feeling
a bit disconcerted by the end. This deliberate seduction of our emotions
reminds me of Woolf's Between The Acts, in that each scene alternates between
different view points so that we are confronted with a multitude of possibilities.
Jazz also reminds me of Michael Oondatje's The English Patient (more the
novel than the film), which replays the same scenes in fuller account and
with more detail.
Name: Kate Olsen
Username: colsen
Subject: Jazz and Creation
Date: Tue Feb 4 22:53:31 EST 1997
Comments:
Hi everyone! I am excited because I finally have the internet in my room!!!! Anyway, I was wondering what everyone thought about the narrator in Jazz. I could detect a distinct personality behind it, but could not really define who or what it was. Does anyone have any ideas? The narrator is most edident in the last chapter. There is a certain tone that makes me want to say that the city is the narrator waiting for the people to "make me, remake me"(229), instead it being in control. This may be pretty far-fetched, but does anyone have any other ideas? I also wanted to comment on Clio's remarks about the creation poems and Genesis. I find that I enjoy discussing the bible as mythology and poetry, rather than being told it is "The Truth". I can better appreciate its value as a story and as carefully constructed poems like Johnson's, if I am left to judge how good of an "explaination" they are. Have fun reading The Wyf of Bath and I'll see you on Thurs.
Name: Joni
Username:
Subject: Wyf and Rich
Date: Sat Feb 8 11:51:11 EST 1997
Comments:
I just read Kate's comment on Jazz and I thought it was interesting
that she enjoyed studying Creation as mythology and I had a really hard
time with that concept. Anyways, I just read Rich's essay and I am
furious that a fruitcake like that represents our gender. I don't mean
to sound disrespectful to my elder who has lived a lot more years and had
more life experience than me, but I got the feeling that Rich went into
a severe state of Menopause and literally never came out. The age would
coincide with her writings. She flat out states that when she started
writing she was going through deep states of anger and depression. I think
working through personal angst should be worked through personally and
not used to try to transform a culture. Anyways, I can see why Mr. Briggs
might associate her with Allison, but in my opinion the two represent polar
opposites. If I were to relate Rich's voice to any literary character, it
would be Edna Pontellier in The Awakening. I got the same feeling reading
both. My biggest problem with the essay were the two most outrageous claims
that male domination is the root of all oppression and that man has never
written for women. I beg to differ. The love poems written by the male
authors she discusses were written often to flatter and woo women out of
awe of the beauty and mystique that surrounds women. I think that Thomas
Hardy knew more about women than any woman author I have ever read.
Eustacia and Tess were definitely contrived for women. If anything
Hardy makes men fear women. I also think that we all have individual
ideals and fantasies that we harbor about the opposite sex and Rich has
no business criticizing personal desires. Allison certainly doesn't.
Allison also asserts that every woman has a gift and with her it is marriage.
Name: Clio Stearns
Username: cstearns@brynmawr.edu
Subject: adrienne rich
Date: Sun Feb 9 22:59:04 EST 1997
Comments:
wow. i read that adrienne rich essay this morning, and it meant so much to
me that i read it again. i think that's the first time i've ever done
homework twice.
i guess i have some things to say in response to joni's comments on the
essay. first of all, i think asking any author, female or male, to represent
her/his entire gender (or class, race, culture, etc.) is a little to much
to ask. literatue is not supposed to be objective; otherwise, it would be
kind of dull. wordsworth, whom many of us praised pretty extensively,
certainly wasn't writing from outside of his own sphere of personal angst.
yet somehow it's more okay for a male author to do this, and that's because
our society trains us to see men who are in touch with themselves as
particularly sensitive, even genius, whereas women who are in touch with
themselves are overly indulgent.
also, while it is certainly true that men have written about women in very
positive lights, emphasizing the beauty they carry with them, we can't use
this fact to justify the simultaneous truth that throughout the majority of
male literature, women have been objects. a beautiful object is still an
object; in fact, she may even be more of one because her intelligence and
emotional complexity are completely belittled.
i guess i feel really frustrated by some of the issues raised here, and i'll
probably have more to say after i've thought about it more. but the other
thing i want to say right now is that despite all the gender arguments, i
think that the one of the most beautiful points rich makes is how stories
make us see things in such new ways. there's a quote from a poem of hers
i read a long time ago that means a lot to me, and it's along the same lines.
so i'll close this (way too long) entry with that:
"I promised to show you a map you say but this is a mural
then yes let it be these are small distinctions
where do we see it from is the question"
personally, i'm kind of proud that she's speaking for my gender.
Name: Kate Olsen
Username: colsen
Subject: rich
Date: Mon Feb 10 19:42:18 EST 1997
Comments:
I would like to commend Clio on her well-phrased and eloquent entry. I really enjoyed reading her thoughts and agreed with much of what she said. One of the points Rich made, which was only a sentence, was that equality did not mean sameness. In other words, in order for a women writer to be "equal" with male writers, she does not have to write as a male writer does. The "universal poet" does not by definition have a male voice. I think this corresponds to the Wyf of Bath because, while she utters mostly anti-feminist ideas, she uses her voice. The Wyf of Bath is somewhat masculine, but she uses her womanliness to get what she wants. While Rich's views are much stronger and more liberal than mine, I could definitely internalize some of her points.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Rich essay
Date: Wed Feb 12 11:59:21 EST 1997
Comments:
Sorry but this post somewhat rambles. Anyway, I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments on Rich's essays. I finished
reading her essay with a lot of ambivalence, enough so that I continued to
read her other essays. And I have to say that overall I tend to disagree
with many of her conclusions (re: when we dead awaken). I agree with Professor
Briggs, who felt she was too hard on Virginia Woolf. I also support Joni in her
belief that men have the ability to and have created complex female characters
as opposed to the "objects" rich discussed. One of the examples I was thinking of was exactly what
Joni posted, Thomas Hardy. Another is Gustave Flaubert (Madame Bovary). But
I think Kate summed it up the best when she said internally she agreed
with many of Rich's points, but not with the same strength that Rich puts
them across. I am glad we read it, though, I think it gives us a lot
to think about. Once again, sorry for the somewhat incoherent nature of this post.
Name: Lauren LeBlanc
Username: lleblanc
Subject: reactions to Rich
Date: Sun Feb 16 16:47:10 EST 1997
Comments:
Well, trepidatiously I step into the forum for the first time. Sorry it's taken me so long to contribute. Well, I want to say that I think we need to evaluate _When We Dead Awaken_ as a piece that was written over 25 years ago. I would be interested in reading what Rich has to say currently about women's voices in literature. I think that the problems that many find in Rich's essay stem from the fact that much time has passed since Rich wrote this essay. Look at the voices that have been put to paper since 1971. There is no way that anyone could compare the strength and clarity of the female voices of the characters in Dorothy Allison's Bastard out of Carolina and Alice Walker's The Color Purple with Tess from Tess of the d'Urbervilles or Emma from Madame Bovary. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I think that if you look at the perspectives in these four distinctly different novels, you too will find that there is no comparison in which novels promote a more varied and genuine portait of women. I do not detract from the merit of Hardy or Flaubert, but I must interject that I find these portrayals by Walker and Allison to be more compelling and closer to what I feel as a woman. I think that now that time has passed and women have been able to express themselves in a more confessional voice, a third model of "re-vision" is needed. I am trying to write my paper about this and I don't know how successful I will be. Again, I want to stress how important and necessary such an essay as _When We Dead Awaken_ was to the time in which it was written. A lot of what Rich felt should be expressed has found its way into publication and has been well recieved. However, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to pursue further ways of reevaluating literature and ways to express the human experience with greater clarity. As we have said in class many a time, words are less than half of the truth, and are an imperfect medium of expression, yet if we continue to evolve, we may come upon a way of percieving and writing which comes close to the original. Please look at what Rich has to say in the context of when she wrote it. Ms. Magazine wasn't even published then. Well, for my first posting, I think I made up for my silence, and I can't wait for the ripple effect which I hope follows. I hope I wasn't too repetitive. See you all on tuesday:)
Name: Kate Olsen
Username: colsen
Subject: Rich
Date: Mon Feb 17 14:25:45 EST 1997
Comments:
I think Lauren has brought up a very good point in her post. It is true that many of Rich's frustrations and the cause of her anger have been resolved by the generations after her. The "female" voice has definitly been established and now we can look to women writers writing in this female voice instead of trying to express ourselves in the male voice Rich reacted against. It is important to our generation that women such as Rich pioneered the way in order to let us think as liberally or as conservitablly as we wish. Women like Rich have allowed us to be whatever we want to be without having to continually fight against male definitions. We can contribute female definitions. We do not have to agree with Rich's anger or conclusions in-When We Dead Awaken-, but we do need to note that women like her have changed the views of both men and women and have allowed for equality without sameness.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Spencer
Date: Wed Feb 19 16:50:18 EST 1997
Comments:
I happen to love Tudor/Stuart England (not that anyone could have noticed
after class on Tuesday) and thought of something that goes along with
some of the ideas expressed by Spencer in the Mutability Cantoes. There is
a painting hanging in The National Portrait Gallery in London of Elizabeth I.
(On a side note, this portrait is notable because it is one of only two known to
be an actual likeness of the Queen) This portrait shows Elizabeth in full
"Glorianna" form (Historical note: it was painted right after the British
defeat of the Spanish armada). It shows Elizabeth standing on a map of the
world. One half of the background is a storm, representing the chaotic
elements that existed before Elizabeth came to power. The other half of the
background shows sun, light and calm. This reprents the peace Elizabeth
brought to the world when she ascended the throne. I feel that this portrait
embodies much of what Spencer suggests about The Virgin Queen in his poem.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Oops!
Date: Sun Feb 23 19:32:33 EST 1997
Comments:
Spenser, I meant Spenser! Oops. My deepest apologies to all.
Name: Joni
Username:
Subject: Paradise Lost
Date: Thu Feb 27 11:25:25 EST 1997
Comments:
Well, I have fifteen minutes to kill before our class meets so I thought
I'd throw in my two cents worth about Paradise Lost. I thought it was
very interesting that Milton gave us Satan's perspective of his Fall and
actually made him into sort of a Byronic hero with greed as his Achilles
Heel. While discussing the eloquence of the "rebel angels" I kept thinking
about great orators such as Queen Elizabeth, Aeneas, and I believe it was
Napoleon(?) in Animal Farm who used their persuasive powers to call their
people to war. Like the Aeneid, I interpreted this poem to have political
undertones. Milton's almost admirable portrayal of Satan's comeback seems as
though he is glorifying the rebellious spirit of the Cromwellians that
participated in the Civil War in the 1640's. He is not glorifying Satan, but
rather the courageous desire for revenge and to take a stand rather than
resigning and admitting defeat. I also thought the idea that "The mind in
its own place and in itself caan make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n"
was a positive point that we can all take advantage of. For some reason
this poem evoked visuals for me and I thought of Stallone's "Rocky" for the
ideas on heroic comebacks and Shawshank Redemption for the idea that you
can escape anywhere in your mind.
Name: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Username: Elizabeth Heller
Subject: Paradise Lost
Date: Tue Mar 4 14:24:23 EST 1997
Comments:
The passage we left off discussing in class today (the description of Adam
and Eve) is an interesting contrast to the passage where Satan encounters
his offspring (Sin and Death). A big thematic concern in Paradise Lost
is the subject of creation. In particular, the poem emphasizes the settings
of Heaven, Hell, Chaos and Paradise to reflect upon the glory of God's works
(of course this may also be read as a reflection of the glory of the poet
himself for creating a medium which relays these works). In any event, it
is important to note that the full ramifications of creation are emphasized
in these passages. Sin is describes as the exact likeness of her father,
a gross distortion of the Christ/Man (created in the image of their fathers)creations.
Her grotesqueness is contrasted with the beauty of Adam. This is an another
reference to the glory of God and his works.
Name: Joni
Username:
Subject: Hardy's woman
Date: Wed Mar 19 21:24:30 EST 1997
Comments:
I was reading Hardy's Jude the Obscure over spring break and I came
across an interesting comment in the postscript that reminded me of our
forum discussion on the contrast between classic and contemporary authors
portrayals of femenism. After the issue of Jude as a serial story in
Germany, an experienced reviewer of that country informed the writer that
"Sue Bridehead, the heroine, was the first delineation in fiction of the
woman who was coming into notice in her thousands every year-the woman of
the femenist movement- the slight, pale bachelor girl-the intellectualized,
emancipated bundle of nerves that modern conditions were producing, mainly
in cities as yet; who does not recognize the necessity for most of her sex
to follow marriage as a profession, and boast themselves as superior people
because they are licensed to be loved on the premises." This upholds my
view that Hardy has a profound insight into the nature of women and writes
primarily for and about them. However the next sentence I came across
represents Mr. Briggs' view. "The regret of this critic was that the
portrait of the newcomer had been left to be drawn by a man, and was not done
by one of her own sex, who would never have allowed her to bread down at the
end."
Name: Peter Briggs
Username: pbriggs@ada.brynmawr.edu
Subject: Pride--Paradise Lost
Date: Fri Mar 21 12:03:31 EST 1997
Comments:
I am afraid that I have slightly misled some of our gang by speaking too generally
or carelessly about pride in Paradise Lost. It is certainly true that Satan
falls mostly out of pride, that pride goeth before a fall, and that Satan's
pride continues to keep him from relenting or mending his ways--but what we haven't been saying
is that his is an excessive pride, not just regular pride. In other words, a
certain amount of pride is legitimate either for angel or for man (after all,
one is made in the image of God) -- but excessive pride is dangerous, sinful, and so on.Thiis notion of a proper amount of
pride (pride within bounds if you will) is more or less what Raphael the
archangel is talking about When he talks to Adam about self-esteem at VIII,
572. I hope this clarification is helpful. Cheers, PMB
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Class discussion...
Date: Wed Mar 26 13:15:46 EST 1997
Comments:
Tomorrow we finish Paradise Lost. I thought perhaps an interesting question to deal with was the issue of free will versus predestination. The reading
we read on Milton's life (in the back of our version of PL) said that one of the causes of conflict between the Puritans and the Protestants was this issue.
The Calvinists advocated the doctrine of predestination and had much distain for the Protestant views.
I was curious as to what everyone thought of Milton's approach/answer to this problem in Paradise Lost.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: "Marriage" art
Date: Wed Apr 9 11:20:25 EDT 1997
Comments:
We've discussed Blake's duality in his poetry, how a poem can be "read" and
interpreted in two opposite ways (As is explained in Blake's subtitle
to the Songs of Innocence and Experience "Showing the Two Contrary States
of the Human Soul") It is also interesting to remark on the duality
between Blake's poetry and his art. In class on Tuesday, we viewed the
illustration that accompanied "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell." "Marriage" is
certainly implied by the numerous couples embracing while flying upwards through
hell's flames to the surface of the earth (which has some more couples).
The words "heaven" and "hell" are placed below ground level, as if to
say that heaven is a part of hell, that the two worlds are equal. This is not
entirely the case. The worlds are not equal, rather the traditional
roles/views of the angel and the devil have been explicitly reversed.
Name: Kate Olsen
Username: colsen
Subject: T. S. Eliot
Date: Thu Apr 10 16:27:54 EDT 1997
Comments:
I would like to make an additional comment on what Elizabeth brought up in discussion today about how Wordsworth and Eliot do not write about the function of poetry or its affects on the audience. I was thinking that maybe they were considering poetry as a way of life rather than for an audience. Both of their approaches to poetry stress a way of viewing and approaching the world. Eliot stresses knowing one's roots and predecessors in order to define oneself in an historical context and Wordsworth stresses listing to ones emotional responses to ones world and having a hightened ability to perceive. Both seem to embrace poetry as a way of existence, even if they do place importance on their audience and the place for poetry in culture. Also, to add on to people's responses about which method is better, Eliot or Wordsworth, I believe that there needs to be a merging of the two. One should realize her/his impact on others and their influence on the individual, but one should also follw and listen to one's own views and emotional responses. As to which philosophy should have more pull, I believe that the one's own personal experiences will always have an influence on one's views, but it is still important to keep an historiacal perspective. I am sorry if I rambled, but I had a few thoughts after a discussion ended.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Re: T.S. Eliot
Date: Fri Apr 11 10:46:11 EDT 1997
Comments:
I think Kate offered a really interesting take on Wordsworth/Eliot and the
function of poetry. I thank her for posting an answer to my question.
I think she was right in noting that poetry should be a merging of the two
worlds. I could never ignore history (as anyone who knows me can attest),
but I do feel the poet must invest his heart and soul for his work
to attain any meaning, either for himself or anyone. Otherwise all we have
are dry words on paper. Technique should refine one's thoughts, not dictate
them. The two, as we suggested in class, are not exclusive of each other.
I think this has the potential to be a good website discussion (for those
of you who fear Milton/Blake) so what are some other thoughts?
Name: Peter Briggs
Username: pbriggs@ada.brynmawr.edu
Subject: More Eliot and Co.
Date: Fri Apr 11 16:06:10 EDT 1997
Comments:
Another thought following on our Wordsworth/ Eliot/ Rich discussion of
yesterday: When one sets forth a critical position paper as all three of these
folks were, one is implicitly raising questions about audience. For whom
were these position papers intended and how best should they be used? Were
they written to justify the writer and to encourage future writers like him or her?
Or were they written to inform an audience -- or perhaps even to find or make
an audience -- by dramatizing (or possibly overdramatizing) the current cultural
moment? Or were they perhaps intended to provide a critical framework within
which to read specific works of recent or contemporary art? At the very least,
such questions suggest that such position papers should be read suspiciously
and with an eye to the multiple uses/audiences for which/whom they might be
shaped. Caveat lector; let the reader beware.
Name: Joni
Username:
Subject: House of Seven Gables
Date: Sun Apr 20 16:36:31 EDT 1997
Comments:
Well, I just finished my final liberal studies paper of my freshman year
and I'm feeling pretty fulfilled. Just thought I'd share. Actually I
just needed an opener. Well, I just wanted to express my appreciation of
Phoebe in THe House of Seven Gables and how refreshing it is to find
a smart, beautiful, introspective, morally upright character in literature.
It is obviously a rare, ideal, and possibly even utopian combination, but
is that not the joy of fiction? I really enjoyed involving myself in
the romantic melodrama that nineteenth century literature provides,
especially this piece. I'd like to apologize for that little outburst in
class about Tess tending chickens too, but I can't ignore the 'Tess'
connotations I received from Phoebe. I hope someone else shares my
zeal for Phoebe and Tess. Is anybody out there?
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: "The House...."
Date: Mon Apr 21 10:38:36 EDT 1997
Comments:
Congrats to everyone on finishing with their last paper!
I really liked The House of The Seven Gables. As someone who loves
history, I appreciate Hawthorne's ability to to weave relevant debates
(Democracy, aristocracy, "science" (mesmerism), etc.) into his novel.
My one quibble is with the ending...did anybody else feel it was somewhat
contrived? Not only that, it just didn't seem to fit in with the rest of
the story. Perhaps this was always Hawthorne's objective but it seemed (to me)
as if he just wrapped everything up at breakneck speed. For example,
suddenly Holgrave is espousing conservative views? What happened to the
radical reformer we saw throughout the novel? I am curious as to what
everybody else thinks of this "transformation" and the ending itself.
Name: Lauren LeBlanc
Username: lleblanc
Subject: numbers in Beloved
Date: Sun Apr 27 18:25:29 EDT 1997
Comments:
THis may seem trivial but I figured I'd bring it up here rather than in class, but did anyone else notice the constant use of the number 4 throughout the novel? I think that the reason the house was "124" was because her 3rd child, Beloved, was dead. But I was wondering if anyone else had given that more thought. Okay, I'll look forward to seeing more postings on Beloved, I hope.
Name: Elizabeth Heller
Username: eheller@brynmawr.edu
Subject: Beloved
Date: Thu May 1 14:40:47 EDT 1997
Comments:
I just wanted to make a brief comment on the characterization of the
Schoolteacher. Morrison makes a point to detail his constant measuring of
his slaves, his delineation of "human" versus "animal" characteristics.
These passages link his racial idealogy to a scientific background.
I mention this only to point out a parallel between the world of Morrison's
characters and our modern times, namely that these beliefs imply that the
schoolteacher is modeled as a Nazi. Science was used as proof of racial superiority
during the late 1800s but it reasserted itself with a vengeance in the early
thirties. I did a report last year on Dr. Josef Mengele, a notorious Nazi
Doctor who performed "scientific studies" on jewish people to prove
the racial superiority of the Nazi regime. Morrison's descriptions of the
Schoolteacher bear a striking resemblance to the methods of Mengele (who
was called the "Angel of Death.")
I could be "reading too much" into this with my own historical knowledge,
but I'd be curious as to how much Morrison knew of this figure (it seems _very_
coincidental).
Name: anonymous
Username:
Subject:
Date: Tue Sep 5 09:54:34 EDT 2000
Comments: